Allison Park Leadership Podcast
A podcast where we have culture-creating conversations.
The world today is too complicated and messy for Christians to avoid tackling the difficult questions.
Hosted by Pastor Jeff Leake and his son Dave Leake, the Allison Park Leadership Podcast is a series of conversations designed to help Christians navigate challenging topics in our faith and culture today.
Allison Park Leadership Podcast
Spanking, Abuse, and Godly Discipline in Parenting
Where is the line between healthy discipline, abuse, and godly correction?
In this episode, we tackle the controversy over spanking in Christian parenting, exploring whether traditional discipline reflects biblical values or crosses into harmful territory.
Join us as we unpack generational perspectives, modern "gentle parenting," and how to raise children with both love and authority.
Welcome to Season 6 Episode 18 of the podcast. Subscribe to the Allison Park Leadership Podcast for more culture-creating conversations.
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Today, we're talking about spanking, abuse and godly discipline, and where is the lime between all three of those? I'm a new parent. I have about a three year old and almost a one year old, and there have never been as controversies as big in my world, as whether spanking is okay or not for a Christian. Is it abusive? Does it even reflect how God disciplines his kids, and how should we discipline? We're going to get into all this and more. So if you want to hear more, stay tuned. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where you have culture creating conversations. My name is David
Jeff Leake:leak and my name is Jeff Leake, and we're glad you've joined us again, both father and son, both pastors, and we're really glad you're part of this conversation. And this conversation we're going to have is going to be, I don't know. I think the fact that we're father and son allows for us to have conversations about a lot of things from different generational perspectives. We're also pastors, so that we share that perspective. We also believe in the word of God as our authority for life. But the topic we're going to talk about today is something that you and I actually practice.
Dave Leake:Yeah, you practice, yeah. Well, first, we'll get into that first. That's a tease for you. Let's just say thank you to all the listeners. No new shout outs or five star reviews today, but we wanted to say thanks for being a part of the show as always. And if you'd like a direct shout out. You can leave us a five star view. Specifically, we'll see your name on Apple podcast. So go ahead and do that. We'd love to hear from you. Today's topic is spanking, abuse and godly discipline.
Jeff Leake:Well, wait, wait, I said it's something that we practice, and then you throw the word abuse in there.
Unknown:Well, you get three options. They can figure out which one it was. Well, that's spanking or abuse or reveal that.
Dave Leake:Yeah. Man, out of all parental topics in the in the world today, at least in our region in America, I don't know that there's anything more controversial off the top of my head than spanking. Yeah. I mean, vaccines are close,
Jeff Leake:by the way. Let me just throw this out. So we're going to talk about parenting, and the approach is discipline in this podcast. And sometime this fall, my wife and I are actually going to start a podcast together on character based parenting, and it'll be much shorter and like, there'll be more, like 15 to 20 minute episodes, and we'll tackle one aspect of a parent, parenting at a time. So this will be like a tease for that, but yeah, so
Dave Leake:those episodes will probably be a lot more calm or less tense than ours
Jeff Leake:are. I guess we'll find out. I know, I know melody is very intimidated by this, but because she's never really done a podcast, guys have a working title, I think we're gonna go with character based parenting. Yeah, cool, yeah, as the as the framework, yeah, yeah,
Dave Leake:let's so. So the topic of discipline is, is a controversial one in the parenting world. One thing that I've noticed, so I'm a parent of two kids right now. We have almost three year old. I guess by the time this podcast comes out, he'll be three. James will be three on September 28 and John will be one year old on November 8 of 2025 so I got two boys. It's one thing that's been common for me, is and Sarah, as we're going through this process of learning how to be, you know, parents is there? There's very little that all parents agree on as the right way to do things, you know, like the right way to feed your kids, the right, you know, just mentioned vaccines, vaccines or no vaccine. Like, you know, you know, how's a lot of shame. How? Yeah, how crunchy Do you want to be yet screen time and, and outdoor activities and, and, you know, are they reading? Are you gonna send your kids to public school or private or home school, or Montessori, or all these things? And you're right, like, I think there's a lot of parent shaming. Probably more seems more of like a mom thing than a dad thing as much, which makes sense, I guess, you know. But so discipline is one of the hot topics, because it's obviously an important thing to have some form of discipline and correcting. But you kind of have two polar opposites. You have old school Christian, hardcore, authoritarian, you know, don't spare your child the rod, sort of spanking type discipline. And then you have the other side, which is more modern, gentle parenting. You know the idea of like calm, have the right environment. Take time dialog, time in with your kids. Make sure you're checking your own emotions. Don't discipline out of anger, which obviously is good. And you have these two extremes, and I would say especially when it comes to the more authoritarian, specifically when it comes to spanking, it's. It's not just out. It's way out. In fact, it's, it's, you know, considered by the a lot of the parenting world as abuse. So today we want to talk about not just parenting, you know, spanking or not spanking, or how to discipline, but also what godly discipline looks like, and how God disciplines us, us.
Jeff Leake:So I feel for your generation, I just say that that it seems like everything is polarized. There's nothing that's not polarized. Parenting is polarized, husband and wife, gender roles is polarized. Politics is polarized. You know, values are polarized. Everything is done in this place where the constant commentary on social media, where you have hit piece shames, shaming videos that go out that can just take your knees out from you, like you're doing your best to raise your kids, and then someone takes your knees out because they call you abusive or soft. Whatever, raising kids that are out of control or whatever, and Parenting is hard enough. I mean, it's so difficult. Every child is different. Every challenge is different that I feel for this generation, that the social media generation that you guys live in, is really, really brutal, and it's dangerous when you start to talk about this kind of thing, because once you wade into the middle of it all, you're gonna brand yourself one side or the other or really offend somebody. And that's not our intent, but that's what we do, though, but we do wade into culture and social norms, and we talk about it from biblical perspective, and we try to pastor the situation. And so being that this is one of these controversies, it's, it's good for us to talk about
Dave Leake:it, yeah, and we get branded how we're gonna get branded. And it is what it is. I think you can't say anything if you're not gonna get branded a certain way. I mean, like, just in the way today's culture is either you only say neutral, positive, you know, Christianity in the middle things and never say anything else, or you say things and hopefully help people, but offend people. And I don't think our goal is to be offensive. It's not. We're not. There's a whole
Jeff Leake:category of that too. Like, my goal, some people would say my goal is to be provocative, like we're gonna push the envelope and I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say. So we're pastors. So pastors Shepherd things. They they're, they're, they're trying to help you interpret things. They're trying to make application. So that's what our that's what our hope would be, yeah, to have a direct truth filled I'm interested based conversation. You know, my parenting philosophy probably though you're going to maybe ask me details about it, but you were raised with me parenting you. I'm actually curious about your philosophy because I'm not sure we've ever had that conversation like I watch you parent your kids, but I don't know that. I necessarily know it intimately.
Dave Leake:I have a three year old, basically, and a one year old, and my parenting philosophy is very much in flux. Figuring it out I would. I don't think I'd want to. So what I feel ready to do today is to dive into some of the biblical perspective, okay, and what the Bible says about it. But as far as, like, the ins and outs of what we're doing? Man,
Jeff Leake:Sarah, it's a survival, survival learning, yeah, mode kind of a thing. It's true. Man, it's depending on what's happening with the child that you are parenting. At the moment, you can feel so inadequate, so overwhelmed, I will say,
Dave Leake:if you stuck around this long and you don't have kids, this is still worth listening to, because we're going to get into not just if you're going to have kids someday, but we're going to get into stuff about the way that God disciplines us and how he shows us love, and all of that. So it'll get a little
Jeff Leake:more if you're my age, and you're watching your kids raise their kids, and you have serious questions about how they're doing it, because I know I talked to people that are in my age category, they're like, I don't understand how my why my child does it like this. So that's one of these. Another moment you feel out of control. But yes, we will try to get to the heart of God of it all too.
Dave Leake:All right, so we've talked about this a little bit, a little bit before, but one of the big cultural milieus, how do you say that word? I don't know. One of the big values, yeah, themes is this idea of gentle parenting, which is to kind of recover again, the idea of it, it's a philosophy of raising kids with respect, empathy and consistency, which all this, by the way, for the record, all this is going to sound great, but when it gets into it, I don't know that. I'm 100% there. Yeah, right. Okay, so using respect, empathy and consistency as a parent, rather than relying on fear, threats or punishments, the goal is to teach children self control and responsibility through connection, not coercion. So main principles empathy, try to understand what your child is feeling and reflect it back. I can see you're feeling frustrated. You know respect, treat your child as a person with dignity, not a problem. To fix boundaries with kindness, gentle parenting is not permissive. It still sets limits, but enforces them calmly and consistently. And then you want to model behavior. Show your kid what you want to see, patience, respect, apology, kindness, instead of just demanding it. Positive Discipline. Focus on teaching, guiding, not on punish, punishment. So you want to validate their feelings. You want to help them understand consequence. You know, you want to use time in with them, as opposed to just time out. So, like, if they give them more attention,
Jeff Leake:you know, I have never heard that before, yeah. Like, time in, you're in time in, yeah,
Dave Leake:like, Oh. Like, so bad. You pull them aside, you're going to spend more quality time. More quality time with them that way they feel. Because sometimes, I mean, there is a there is a reality. Sometimes kids act out because they want attention, right? Like, sure. And then sometimes it, you know, a gent part of gentle parenting is reflective, like, make sure you are focusing on your emotions and that you're doing what you should first before you enter the situation. So,
Jeff Leake:you know, I think not to go too deep right away, but I think in some ways, you can sort of see this is this fits along the dividing lines of what is a lot of the polarization in our culture, which is the collision between the progressive worldview and the conservative worldview, you can look at that politically. You can look at it in a lot of value systems. But if I were to maybe over summarize the progressive worldview, there almost is this feeling that human beings are born good and are naturally good, and then they're corrupted by society. And so gentle parenting, in some ways, is almost like saying the natural goodness that your child has just needs to be brought to the surface, and if you can protect them from societal encroachment that they'll raise, they'll be raised to be a healthy human being with, you know, well adjusted habits and values and have the right temperament and be feel accepted in themselves, etc, etc. The conservative worldview, and probably more the the historic biblical worldview, is that human beings are born with a bent toward evil, right, and that everyone is selfish, and that we're born in that condition of selfishness and damage, that it isn't what society has done to us, it's just that that we are selfish and damaged, and that part of a parent's role is to restrain that selfish desire, bring them into a point of discipline so that they can build better character, because their natural bent will be to do the wrong thing right, and they need to be taught to do the right thing, and ultimately be brought to a place of salvation where they can be transformed from the
Dave Leake:inside. Okay? And that right there, is the key foundation of the entire perspective we're going to talk from. So if you missed that, it's worth, worth listening to it again. Essentially, the summary is, is, you know, is, is the way you're viewing your kid as a healthy, good thing. That is, the tendencies are towards good things, and we have to do is nurture and love, and he or she's going to turn out the way that she's supposed to be because they're inherently a good kid. We don't want to have them be corrupted by screen time or vaccines or bad influences, whatever idle norms, societal norms, or pressures, or old traditions or parental you know, harshness, or is your kid you know born as a sinner who, you know is naturally
Jeff Leake:going to do the wrong Yeah, without restraint, will become a monster, yeah? And I definitely
Dave Leake:view it as the second. I mean, James is not a monster. I love James. He's wonderful. But just as I believe all children are, you know, I'm praying that he meets Jesus at an early age, because every human we sort is depraved, like sometimes James will just run by John and give him an elbow to the face for no reason, like they're playing, and he always go, boom, but I'm like, like, I didn't teach him that. I can tell you, society has not taught James to throw a running elbow at John's head as he's trying to eat a cheese, it or whatever.
Jeff Leake:No, nobody taught him that, you
Dave Leake:know, but, and I think that's part of my job as a parent. It's not that he's a bad kid. He's a wonderful boy, but I think part of my job as a parent is to help to
Jeff Leake:Yeah, well, the progressive worldview basically says your child is good, they're good. So it's not that they aren't good. God has created us all with really great things. We've been given a very unique personality, unique gifts, unique talents. There's things about us that are absolutely beautiful and precious and one of a kind, and God loves us with an everlasting. Love, but we've been corrupted by the infection of sin, which bends everything towards selfishness and pride.
Dave Leake:Just to back this up with scripture, you know, Romans talks all about this, but Romans 512 says, Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and in this way, death came to all people, because all sinned. You know, Romans 323, 23 says, For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The idea is that every person in their natural state, even kids, even really cute, three year olds with curly hair that are crazy like James, are naturally sinners, and they need a savior. They don't just need, yeah, you know, the right friends or parenting, or
Jeff Leake:some show their selfish bent more than others, true, right? Some, some are you. You can't see it as much. It's in everyone. Sin is in everyone and and it will show up somewhere. But some, some kids, especially in the early stages. You look at them and you think, Whoa, like, Dude, you are out of control. And others show up, and they're much more, you know, less, less impacting to others and and demonstrate, but all of us are still staying stained with the same sin, yeah, and it'll affect our lives in different ways. So if we start with that premise that everyone has an evil bent, and even two year olds show it, then your parenting approach will be, will be to restrain and direct that. Yeah, if you believe that all children are inherently good, and then anything bad that they do must be the fault of some external. And if it's the fault of the external, then what you do is you keep trying to change the externals, because if you think the atmosphere, the temperature of the room, the amount of attention that they're getting, the way other people are talking to them, what they've been exposed to on TV, if it's only protecting them from bad externals, then you never address the root issue within us, which is that we're all, we all have a strain of selfishness in us, right? Yeah, and that, that's probably the core of where we start. And I don't think that you can look at scripture, if you're going to say the Bible is our authoritative for life, authority for life and practice, and it carries weight on how we parent, you can't look at what the what the Bible teaches, and come up with the theory of the basic goodness of humanity. You come up with the theory of sin. So it has to be addressed in its root issue in everybody's life.
Dave Leake:So So playing this out, just in a practical level, this is, this is part of what I have a problem when it comes to with gentle parenting, is because when the goal is empathy and connection, the goal is not teaching them submission first and foremost. So connection and empathy, at least to me, it feels like, Hey, we're both people, we're both humans, we're both equals. In a sense. I mean, I know a child and a parent, even parent or gentle parenting, isn't equal but we're equal dignity, equal value. And so I want to connect, and I want to empathize and I want to discipline, but in a gentle way, because I want you to, you know, feel safe and secure and loved, and all those things are important. But there's a certain level where I think one of the things that every kid needs to be taught is submission to authority just because it's authority. You know what I'm saying? Sure, so it's not authority because of connection. It's not it's not a authority that is grounded based on how well the parent loves you. It's authority because they're the parent. You know? It's submission because,
Jeff Leake:yeah, because selfishness never dies without submission, right?
Dave Leake:Yeah, and it's like, I'm going to obey, not out of a qualified nature of you've earned my respect, or I know that I'm seen, or I know that I'm loved, it's I'm going to give you respect and submission because
Jeff Leake:you're my dad, because you're my dad, and because God has appointed you in my life with the role of training me. And I know that you being present in my life will will help me, not that your two year old is thinking this, sure, but will will help me become what God wants me to be. And I don't want to be selfish, and I want to I don't want to be trained properly, so that I'm patient and kind and gentle and I know how to apologize and I submit myself to a process, so that I can be a great husband or a wife one day, or I can be a great employee one day, like I'm learning character, I'm learning to develop. So yeah, I think we start there. But okay, the gentle parenting side. I think where there is biblical biblical alignment, there is the concept of redemptiveness, okay, so meaning that if you believe that your child is flawed and sinful, but your tone is that of redemption rather than punishment, then it. It feels a lot like gentle parenting, because a redeeming parent comes at it from empathy and concern and compassion and equal dignity, and because your goal is not just simply to say you're wrong and you deserve pain and I'm going to bring correction into your life. It really is. You are seen. I do care about you. Who you are now is not who you always will be. God has the ability to redeem and repair your life, and I'm here as the messenger in God's world to help you become that. And the tone is redemptive, and the approach is redemptive, and it's always positive. It's never a negative. I'm angry, and so I'm just gonna, I'm just going to deal with you. You know, in this it's, it's, it's always with a redemptive tone. So in that sense, I think the progressive side of the world has added the tone and dimension of empathy and respect, which sometimes you could be biblically accurate in terms of the enforcement of discipline, to deal with your child's selfishness issue, but if you didn't do it with the tone of empathy and respect, it often times left people feeling that, I don't know they were not that they were abused, but it left unnecessary questions in their mind about their value, sure, or their purpose.
Dave Leake:Well, I mean, it kind of comes down to the difference between punishment, or you could say judgment and discipline. Yeah, because, you know, discipline is restorative. It's it's temporary pain meant to teach. But then there is such a thing as just judgment. I mean, like someday, whenever God judges the world, it's not judgment for the sake of restoration. No, just flat out judgment for
Jeff Leake:the customer alive, and we haven't faced Judgment Day. Everything we do in this life is discipline. That's true. It's not judgment. We're never going to carry out judgment.
Dave Leake:But I think sometimes what can go wrong is whenever, when, when. And I can say that I am not without fault in this you know, whenever, whenever you discipline, and then it turns not from discipline, but it's now punishment because you're
Jeff Leake:mad. Yeah,
Unknown:I mean, like you can
Jeff Leake:quickly shift gears from I'm here to help redeem your soul from selfishness to I'm so tired of you right now. And, and that's what's so hard, is that your personal emotions are involved in sometimes you just want it to stop. Yeah? So you're doing what you can do to get it to stop, and you're not really thinking about, how am I developing this human being that God has given me? You're thinking, just stop being a problem right now. Yeah. So let's, talk for a moment, Dave about some of the social media voices. So we looked at a clip that we were thinking about playing that was a person that was calling into question some of the Bible verses about spare the rod, spoil the child, kind of thing, and the person offering her opinion, I said after listening to the little clip, and those of you are parents probably know the kind of clips I'm talking about, I didn't necessarily disagree with what she was trying to accomplish, which was to create an environment where parents learn how to discipline without anger and with love. But what she was doing. And this is oftentimes what happens when someone is trying to apply the progressive worldview is their goal is not necessarily biblical accuracy and hermeneutical interpretation of what the Scripture teaches it's to achieve the progressive outcome. And so it superimposes a progressive outcome on versus, and says, Well, these verses don't actually mean this. Let me
Dave Leake:explain what she said. Okay, so, so she was she, by the way, that when I say she, this could be one of 50 or more clips. I mean, there's not just one person I showed you. We are not going to share the name to protect Yeah, I showed you one just to get an idea. But, I mean, you could find so many of these. Okay, basically, the idea was, when you look at Proverbs where it talks about, you said, Spare the rod, spoil the child, isn't one of the verses, you know the well, the rod really means it's a metaphor for the symbol of authority. And you know, like rod is not just using these verses. It's used as a as a rod that God talks about other places, or it could be a shepherd's rod where they don't beat the sheep. And so to talk about this, you know, beating preschoolers or little children is totally out of context. And that sounds like it's a pretty good handling of the Bible at first blush. But what we are going to do in just a second is to kind of look actually at the verses and sort of what they say. And for the record, I guess I'll just spoil this. I don't think we're going to say as a conclusion, spanking is the only or best or proper way to discipline your kids, but let's look at what Proverbs actually says about the rod,
Jeff Leake:because if you're going to actually take so one. Conclusion is you can say you could hear all these verses that we're going to go over and say, I reject the Bible's authority in my life, and I'm not going to use it as a guideline for how I parent my kids. But if your starting point is like us, we believe the Bible is God's word, and it provides a guide, guidance for every aspect of life. And then you read the Proverbs and you say, this is actually what the Bible says. Well, now you either have to reject what it says because you don't like how it aligns with your worldview, or you have to apply what it says in a reasonable fashion. And I guess that's what we're going to do here. So you want to take us through some of the verses,
Dave Leake:yeah, so which one was the one? Okay, so the one that's the most common that I had heard. I think there's some that sounds similar, but proverbs 1324, says, Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Okay, all right, so I'd heard this one a few times, and I was like, ah, yeah, I guess just one verse, Because Sarah had had a, you know, a real on Instagram. Like, look at this. Like they're saying this. Do you think this is true? And I was like, let me look at it.
Jeff Leake:By the way, this was not controversial in my generation. No, of course not. Yeah. So the the idea of the rod was very clearly that. So my dad and mom both some of the, I think maybe the best parents ever. My dad spanked me growing up. It wasn't, it wasn't a thing. Didn't spank me a lot. Didn't spank me in a way that was damaging or hurtful. Didn't leave bruises. Honestly, wasn't all that painful. It was a little bit like I felt it. But it wasn't just my dad. I got I got spanked in junior high, in school, in school, yeah, so I got into I got pushed up against the wall, and a kid slugged me in the face, and I hit back, and we fought for three minutes. And, you know, they pulled us from the hallway, took us into the principal's office, and he had this principal at this big, probably two and a half foot paddle, and he bent us over the table and gave us three swats. Here was his here was his talk. I mean, they're gonna call your parents and tell them you were fighting, or I can give you three swats. And we said, Give me three swats. He whacked us three times since sent us back to class as heroes. Hey, man, I heard you got swats, all right, like we were instant, instant rock stars.
Unknown:I mean, could you better find out? I told him, okay,
Jeff Leake:yeah, I told him I didn't, because I was, I didn't start it so I wasn't, I wasn't, it didn't. It was like I was brawling all the time. But okay, did, I didn't feel personally that that was abuse. I don't also think it was a deterrent. I think it's kind of silly. But now, can you imagine, yeah, if a teacher had a kid? No, I know it's crazy. My
Dave Leake:goodness. Let's just, let's just jump in here so that this word, I'm not going to be able to pronounce this correctly, but this word, I guess it's Chevette, sometimes it's translated. As scepter to their to this person's point. You know, sometimes the word is used in other contexts. Psalm 125, three, says, The scepter of the wicked will not remain over the land allotted to the righteous idea of rulership. But let's look at where rod is used. Now in Proverbs, I'm just, I'm not going to just read spanking ones. I'll just kind of go through a list of these. Just read slow enough to get every verse, okay? Proverbs 1013, wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense. Okay, that's rod for the back. Is a shepherd's rod. Okay? Now this will not, maybe not talking about a child either. Let's keep going. Yeah, whoever spares the rod hates their this is Proverbs, 1313, 24 whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Proverbs, 22 eight, whoever sows injustice reaps calamity, and the rod they wield in fury will be broken, okay, I'm not that's maybe rod they wield in fury as I guess they're what they're attacking people with it's like a club, okay? Because this is the word for like a club or a stick, okay? Proverbs, 2215, Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away. That kind of reflects we were talking about earlier. Folly, Foolishness is bound up. They're not inherently wise. Yeah, it says the rod of discipline will drive far away. Proverbs 2313, do not withhold discipline from a child. If you punish them with the rod, they will not die. Punish them with the rod and save them from death. That's pretty clear to me, like that does I don't think punish them with the rod is a symbolic thing, or can be even possibly taken as symbolic well,
Jeff Leake:even the shepherd's rod. So your rod and staff, they will comfort me. The shepherd's staff was the stick with the hook where they would grab the sheep and pull them back and and the shepherd's Rod was something that you threw it was like had a point on the end of it. And you would throw it like a weapon, so that if a sheep was wandering from the flock, and you threw the rod, it would land, it would, like, stick in the ground and make you turn around in fear to say, Whoa, what happened? So even if it was applied in that, it that couldn't fit into gentle parenting, yeah, like the even, like whipping, like it's it's basically a forceful act to say the boundaries here, don't go any further, right,
Dave Leake:okay? Proverbs, 26 three, a whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools. And then. Proverbs, 2915 a rod and a reprimand. Impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother. Okay? Just quickly for this one, a rod and reprimand. What is a reprimand? It's a rebuke. It's a scolding. It's a talking to that doesn't sound gentle either. No, I don't think either one of these does okay. So all this to say to me when I read through Proverbs, I mean, this seems to be talking about controlled. You know, non like, non violent, non harmful type.
Jeff Leake:Technically, we're not taking rods to the backs of fools, right? So if you find a fool in your company or whatever, you're not gonna, you're not gonna take a rod to them. I think, I think some of these are metaphorical. Some of these are are said in a way that's almost what is it when you exaggerate to make a point, hyperbole, they're hyperbole. But even if you were to slice out the hyperbole and and the exaggeration, you know, kind of ideas, there still is this sense, even if you just use the word reprimand, just, let's say that we get agree upon that being the word, let alone discipline. And, you know, and and the physical use of some restraint, like a rod that clearly delays doesn't fit into the gentle parenting paradigm like this is Stern, it's direct, sure, it's confrontative. And, you know, I think the other thing this also fits into is oftentimes dads are the ones that provide this, right? Even the voice of a father, yeah, sometimes all it takes is the voice of your dad saying stop, right? You know what I mean, like, and that's not gentle, but that authority is is a part of what fathers bring to the table. And this, there's an objection to dads being like that, as if it's toxic masculinity, right? So there's almost an objection to any kind of authority, authoritative execution of discipline or or manhood in a situation, sure, which I'll just say, as a as a child, raised by a really amazing father, I had a healthy fear of my dad, yeah, because of his the tenor of his voice, like there were moments when I knew not to mess with him. I knew he wasn't gonna hurt me, but I kind of had, like there was half a doubt in my mind, like I didn't want to test that, because I knew how strong my father was, and I knew how fierce he could be, and again, never even came close to abusing me. Yeah, and when, when he even said harsh words. He would always apologize to me, right? But a healthy fear, I think in some ways, having a fear of God Is this
Dave Leake:too well, yeah. I mean, there's the, you know, I don't remember what the reference is, but it says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
Jeff Leake:Proverbs, 170, there you go. Wow, come on. Yeah, so, and that doesn't mean just awe of that means respect
Dave Leake:for a healthy a healthy fear is, I need to be careful around something this, because this is serious, this, yeah, this powerful and this, you know, deserving of reverence and respect. Yeah, it is serious, but, but there, there is a part of fear of like, of a healthy fear of God is not just an awe or a reverence. It's also a I need to, I need to judge my actions, because I'm going to be judged by him someday. Yeah, you know. And again, that's not the only judgment. Is not the only thing God does and he has discipline. You know,
Jeff Leake:we think it's judgments. God's job. Our job is discipline. We leave the judgment up to God, but discipline is our job,
Dave Leake:right? I was referencing that God has more types of of correction than just judgment, you know what I mean.
Jeff Leake:So do we get practical nowadays? Well, let's, let's just
Dave Leake:say this, okay, so the let's, let's now talk about, when it comes to spanking, what's kind of out there in the parental ethos? So a couple things. One, there's been a lot of studies that have been done on spanking, and a lot of them have turned up that spanking can be harmful over time to kids. Okay? And so there's other alternatives, which gentle parenting tends to be, you know, Oh, time in or like, oh, like, take away things, whatever I'm. Um, for the record, I just want to clarify that I don't think we're saying spanking is the only biblical method of discipline. There are other methods, you know, I use timeouts a lot. Sometimes it's taking away James's toys, if he's, you know, not listening. There's, there's a number of healthy ways. I think we're giving a biblical perspective on what spanking actually says, or what the Bible says about spanking, yeah, but so there are a number of studies that talk about it. I've done some research on this. I'm not an expert at all, but what I'm finding is what's not contested. Households that spank often show, you know, kids with worse behaviors, but we're talking about often spanking with objects, and often it's it's not a necessarily Christian households, and sometimes these often lead to abuse as well, like included in a lot of these studies, are abuse of households, and so they often don't lead to good behaviors. What is hotly still contested is especially when it comes to open handed spanking that's not done in anger, that's done at early ages, that's eventually phased out. The research seems to show that that doesn't have a it's kind of negligible as far as the actual long term effects so controlled spanking. I would say, if you do the research, it seems to be something that even psychology doesn't show is actually a harmful thing. And I would say that, like, based on so Proverbs is not like this. Let's say it's in the video. Proverb is not commands to us. It's wisdom. Biblical wisdom still affirms some form of controlled physical discipline, like spanking. Yeah. And then can I make one last point that I that I've heard when it comes talked about this, and we can go wherever you want from here. But the last thing I'll just say is, when we're talking about, like a lot of the opposition I hear, as far as spanking, is if somebody, let's say if James hits, do I want to teach him not to hit by then hitting him immediately afterwards. What I would say to that is, you know, Romans, Romans, 13, four talks about, you know, godly authorities that are established. How God, you know? So it says this, For one of for the one in authority is God's servant for your good, but if you do wrong, be afraid. For rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer. Okay, this is not a parenting verse, but the point that I'll make as far as an illustration that the world that God has set up has authority with sometimes harsh punishment that comes as a result, somebody who murders may get the death penalty, and it's given back to them what they gave to somebody else. I think that there's something healthy about in a controlled, godly, loving way, teaching your kid empathy when they hit by giving it back to them in a controlled dose, so that they understand what it feels like to hit. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying. I know you're not hitting your kid, yeah, but, but my So, I have a framework for thinking about this, sure, but I'll just say to some of the idea, the progressive worldview idea, is that because people are basically good any any kind of bad. Is environmental, sure, right? Societal. You can also see this in the punishment of crime, like they say, well, he had committed this crime, but that's because they had these environmental stimuli, or even genetics, is a part
Jeff Leake:of it now, too. So okay, maybe let's go back to your example of, do you train a child not to hit by by spanking? Is that the mechanism? I think so. Anybody that's heard me talk about parenting, I've probably unpacked this framework, because this was the framework that I raised you with. Sure someone taught me this early on, and I had this in my mind. Mike, here was my grid. So my goal was to build your character. That's why we're going to talk about the podcast character, but based training or character based podcast, right? That Mel and I will do. So I had this three part grid. If it's irresponsibility, you teach responsibility. If it's disrespect, you teach respect. If it's defiance, you enforce obedience. Okay, so if, if it's an irresponsibility thing, so I say be careful, Dave. That milk is right on the edge. If you don't milk, if you don't move that milk, you're going to spill it. And you're like, Ah, whatever. And then you knocked it over. The goal there would not be spanking. The goal would be redemptive. All right, you spilled it. You're going to clean it up. Now, I'll help you. Let's get down on the floor. Here's the paper towels. Like you got to learn how to listen like when I tell you stuff, I'm telling you stuff because I want you to learn how to listen, because I'm trying to guide you through life, and I don't want you to do irresponsible like you didn't clean you said you would clean your room. You didn't clean your room, that's irresponsible. I want you to go back up and clean your room, and you're not going to be able to have these privileges until you go and do what you said you would do. You got to be a person of your word, so I'm teaching you integrity. You got to do what you said you would do. Okay, so that's one disrespect. Probably this is when you're hitting your brother. Okay, so this is so disrespect I would want to teach respect. So let's say James runs by and smacks Johnny. Okay, here's here's the method I would use. I would grab your shoulders, I would look in your eyes. And I know James, and I believe this was true of a lot of the kids I read, they look away. They won't meet your eyes. So I like force you to make eye contact. Do you understand how this is wrong. What you just did like I want you to acknowledge me that you understand, and eventually say, yes, okay, John is your brother. I'm not going to let you treat him this way. So first what I need you to do a go over, and I need you to say you're sorry, and I need you to give him a hug, and I'm going to be watching you that you don't do it again. Okay? So that's training respect defiance. This is where enforcement comes in, and this is where you have to enforce with something like it can't always be time in. There has to be some price that you pay in the enforcement process. You can't enforce obedience without some kind of a price. So let's say James hits Johnny three times in a row, and he's apologized three times in a row, but he is doing it specifically to defy you, and you know that that's the case. Sure at this point now you have your defiance options. What will I do to enforce his obedience? Will I put him in time out so that he understands why he is being restricted from movement, because until he learns how to behave himself with other people, he can't move. Will I take away a privilege? Is that going to be the thing that will enforce obedience, or is it the raising of my voice to a certain level where he knows okay, that the tone has just changed? One thing that is really a trap for a lot of parents, is, I'm going to count to three. What? What I'm going to count to three does is, trains the person to know they're not serious until they start counting. Yeah. Well, counting three
Unknown:does work, though, sometimes I fall into that trap because he knows, Yeah,
Jeff Leake:but you're right, yeah. It basically says, until he starts counting. And kids, they just know, like they pick up on your cues. They know how to work you right? They know when you're tired, they know when you're hungry, they know when you're distracted. They know when you picked up the phone, like you just told them not to do that you picked up the phone. They're like, Okay, this is my chance. I'm gonna run for it. So it's, it's, it's training them. So there are moments that I'll just tell my personal parenting style. My parents personal parenting style, when we had tried every other option, like we had run out of options. We had done the Time Out thing, we had done the privilege thing, and we were in a stare down. We were in a battle of the wills, that there was some kind of physical punishment when you were really small, in very limited fashions. Are you thinking of an instance? Now, no,
Unknown:I think I'm thinking, I'm not sure that those were the exact limits that we used all the time based on my but, yeah, I tried. I mean, okay,
Jeff Leake:who knows? I don't even remember Dave. Honestly, it's like a big blurb the parent for me.
Dave Leake:No, no. I mean, I didn't get spanked a lot. I think you but you definitely,
Jeff Leake:you knew was an option.
Dave Leake:It was an option that you that used. It got used enough. Like, I count on the number, like, on one hand, the number of times it got spanked. I got spanked a good amount. Like, it was not a yearly thing. And I don't know that this is what I'm saying. Like, framework is really
Jeff Leake:helpful, and it was really early on, like it wasn't,
Dave Leake:I wasn't, like, you worked at 13? No, no. I mean I was probably, it was probably when I was not even seven or eight. It probably was where under 10? Yeah, under 10, for sure, yeah. I mean, not until I was, if it was
Jeff Leake:elementary age, it had to be serious problems, like it was, like had risen to a level of defiance that was serious
Dave Leake:problems. No would have to be, we drove mom crazy. That's, that's what it would have had to have been, definitely. I mean, I remember clearly. I think defiance was probably part of it. But, yeah, no, but the framework, the framework is
Jeff Leake:helpful. Well, now we're talking about the the ideal,
Unknown:sure. So, so how it
Jeff Leake:got executed in our family? Maybe there are times when it happened because you felt like driven to distraction, and you're trying to re establish some level of control, sure, and, and probably that's not the best
Dave Leake:use. I think, I think it was sometimes disrespect when you said, like, there wasn't told to find it's like, I don't know. I think it was this. I think it was disrespect. I think that would count as a spanking level thing, because, like, respect. Respect was more. I mean, I think you did a great job of teaching under house. Like respect was one of those distraction was okay a certain level. I feel like Delayed obedience, as you would say, Delayed obedience to disobedience, was a certain level. That would be a maybe get your shoulders. That would be a raise your voice. I think if I was openly disrespectful to you. I don't think that that would be a just you. You talk to me. I
Jeff Leake:would do something very forceful, like, like, I might say, upstairs. Now, get in your room right here. I left in your mind this question. I'm not sure what he's gonna do. You probably didn't always, huh, you probably didn't always No no, no, no, but I want so again, this is my maybe it's my leadership style too, sometimes, because I'm an eight on the Enneagram scale, so sometimes I just wanted to completely flip the environment so that you were bewildered. You had no idea what's coming next. Shocking awe. And then I would, then, after I got you in that state of, okay, I have your attention now, then I would back down, yeah, but it probably felt elevated to you, because you were like, what is happening now? Yeah. And, and there was a lot of techniques I used that were way short of of spanking that just involved me powering up in the situation, being very loud. Let me just say, let me just say, never calling you names, no. Never doing anything demeaning, never, never screaming, yeah, just using a voice of authority to say, like, stop like it and it was like and again. So let's just make honest confessions. If I could go back in time and parent again, I'm certain there were many, many moments when I would be more temperate than I than I was in the moment with all the stress that's going on, this is what's so bad about the shaming environment that comes with social media, because parenting is tough. And if we're talking to somebody and you have been intemperate or done something improper, one of the great things that was true about my dad's style is there were times he probably went overboard with me and the way that he raised his voice or whatever, but when he recognized it, he would always come back and humble himself, yeah, he would get on his knees, look me in the eyes and say, I'm really sorry. I love you so much. It wasn't like a Jekyll and Hyde schizophrenic kind of thing. It was the on the rare occasion, every so often I think he did those. Well, yeah, I was, I tried to emulate what I saw my dad do that when I did, do things out of emotion, rather than out of the strategic desire to build your character that that I would come back and admit that to you, because I think that's how you learn to trust, yeah, because we both knew I was out of line. Yeah, right, right. And me training you and having good character, and then not demonstrating good character that doesn't help anything either. Sure, sure, totally. So how does this work? Like the defiance, disrespect, thing that you're enduring right now? Dave, how are you interpreting that kind of what's your
Dave Leake:framework? I don't think I have as fleshed out of a framework as that. I'm we're working through some of this, I would say, like, kind of like, what you talked about for us, spanking is kind of a last resort. I really don't enjoy it. Like, before I was actually a dad, I was like, oh, like, like, the what sounded like an enjoyable thing was, like, teaching my son discipline, you know what I mean? And I guess it is character building and those kind of things. And I thought like, oh, spanking is part of that's not going to be anything. And then it's I actually, I mean, I don't like it. Like it. I feel like sometimes it's necessary, but it's sort of our last resort. I kind of want to use whatever else we can up until that point, but then, I guess we're already deep into the waters of people are offended if they're against this, but I feel like there's a certain point where it feels like it's a right thing to do. Like I feel like, because it's like every time if we ever have to spank, you know, we would never spank Johnny, right now, he's way, way, way too young, but James, who's close to three, if I had to, you know, it'd be a very calm thing. It'd be a controlled, you know, one spanking, I give him a hug, I explain it once again. You know, we have a teaching moment, and move on. And I feel like there's something about it that feels like, yeah, that's, this is a in the right, controlled thing. This is good. I don't feel like it's necessarily relationship damaging, but if it became something I used a lot, it would probably not be great. I do think it's a limited thing that will phase out at a certain
Jeff Leake:point, limited last resort thing. Yes, that. Then here's the part that we haven't talked about yet, that I think has to be a part of the context. You. For every one of those moments that is, raise your voice, shake the environment a bit, get you off balance, bring you back into line. There has to be 25 moments of I Love You So absolutely. I'm so proud of you. Come sit on my lap. Let's watch this TV. Let's Play video games together. Let's go to the zoo. Let's go to dinner. Man, you did that so good. Sitting, sitting on the sidelines of your basketball game and cheering you on and telling you how amazing you are, laying hands on you, praying, blessing prayers over you, attending church together, worshiping, admitting my faults, going on vacation together, quality time. And then in the context of all of that, there are these moments of discipline that occur, that that are necessary to build you as a person, right? If all you get is the Raise Your Voice discipline kind of thing, and you never get the other pieces, well, then of course, you're going to be like longing for affirmation and encouragement like, would for oxygen, right, right, but if you flood the environment like that's that's the thing about my dad. My did my dad spank me on occasion? Yes, but he also, I remember sitting in my middle school basketball games, and we had driven on the bus an hour away to play some remote school, and none of the parents were there because it was at 330 in the afternoon, and someone would point up in the stands and say, is that your dad? And I'd be like, yeah, he like, came to all my games, yeah. Like the amount. So if one, if you're making deposits and withdrawals, right, if you're going to have disciplinary moments with your children, you've got to match that by tons of deposits, yeah, and then you make a withdrawal on occasion, then you give tons of deposits. So I think the the imbalance is where it's it's nothing but discipline and not enough redemptive lifestyle.
Dave Leake:Oh, I mean, it's the job of parents. They do both, yeah. And obviously you can if you skew towards almost exclusively positive moments, then your kid may be a wild
Jeff Leake:person. Yeah, and then when they get into school or other environments, no one knows what to do with them because you have not trained them how to respond when they hear the word no, or you haven't trained them to be respectful with other kids, or you haven't trained them to be responsible for the things that they break. So you know, when your kids show up in the world and people say to you, your son is such a great guy like your daughter, wow. I am so impressed with her. That is the sign that the parenting is working, not that you fit some code of current, progressive paradigm? Well, nobody's
Dave Leake:trying to fit that code that they're trying to fit the I have a really strong, healthy relationship me and my son or daughter have a lot of connection and vulnerability, and they're safe and they love me and and if I have to discipline, they're not, they're not. They know I because I think maybe there's a for some of my generation below, there's a aversion to the idea of not having a close relationship with your child that sometimes discipline can brings where it causes some distance. Do you know what I mean?
Jeff Leake:Yeah, yeah. And I think too, the other part of it is that you know you and I, Dave, over time, have grown to be friends. We share a lot of the same enjoyments, Chelsea Football Club, Pittsburgh Steelers. You know, we have all these conversations which have become the podcast about relevant social issues in church, like we're in ministry together, okay? But ultimately, my primary goal was not to be your friend. It was to be your dad. Yeah, and some parents want to be their kid's friend first, and their parents second, and they want to be liked, and they don't want to do anything unpopular. And you have to sacrifice that for a little while, because there are, were probably moments in my life where you didn't like me because of my restrictions, where I was telling
Unknown:you, if I didn't like you,
Jeff Leake:that's not the right word, you just saw me as an impediment.
Unknown:No, that's think about how you thought about with your dad. Yeah. Oh, I did too. No impediment to certain things. I just thought of
Jeff Leake:my dad as of you as just a dad, like, yeah. Like, I was, I remember you said to mom once, I never, ever really thought about dad having feelings, yeah,
Dave Leake:yeah, right. I was just, well, you know, for a long time, for a long time, though, like, I mean, probably has a lot of dads. Like, I didn't see a whole range of emotions for you. Yeah, I saw, like, happy, relaxed on vacation, dad. Dad, needs quiet. Dad, like there was anyway, like you were loving, and we watched movies, and it wasn't like you were distant. But I mean, I didn't see a feely side of you. Ever look and I was still. Growing up at that point, and I was like, that's weird, like I thought of you, like, it's like, there's kids, and then there's moms and dads, and moms are kind of like this, and then there are dads, and dads are like, but dads don't feel things like, I don't even mean that in a bad way. It was my little kid perspective. And then one time, like, the few of us offended you somehow. I don't know what I mean now I can understand what I would have done, because I'm a dad and, like, what are you doing? Like, even as a two year old, you're like, crazy that you would say that, like, but they're smart anyway, so yeah, and you were an amazing dad, you know. And I have a ton of respect for how you parented us, and I think you instilled a healthy, godly fear of authority, but still had a close relationship. And so I guess, like with with the last little bit of our podcast, I do think it's important to talk about the way that God disciplines and the way that God interacts. You know, one of the things that I've heard when it comes to parenting is like, specifically when it comes to spanking, like, Jesus was never harsh. He would have never, you know, beat children. And obviously he didn't spank because he didn't have children. So that's like,
Jeff Leake:wasn't kind to the money changers. I
Unknown:was, I was gonna say that. I'm like, But, but, like, if we're talking about any and
Jeff Leake:he said to his disciples, how many times, oh, you have little faith. What's going what's going on?
Unknown:Literally fashions a whip in John, yeah? And he goes in there and whips people out of the temple. Like, I mean, that's, that's intense,
Jeff Leake:yeah? And he did rebuke people. So, yeah, we don't get the chance to see Jesus as a dad. So that that not as a literal dad of, yeah, not as physical children, but the Father in heaven is a is a dad. And, you know, Hebrews gives us this little section of Scripture that points this out, right? And it says, endure hardship as discipline. God is treating you as children. Okay? So that means Sometimes God allows hardship in your life because he's trying to train you like a coach would train an athlete for what children are not disciplined by their father, because it almost makes like it's synonymous being a father in implies that you're a discipliner, right? If you're not disciplined and everyone undergoes discipline, then you're not legitimate and true son. So this basically says part of being a son or a daughter is that you are being disciplined because the person who's your dad loves you to such a degree that they're not going to let you remain in the condition of immaturity that you show up in the world as Moreover, we've all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live? What verse are you in right now? For this is Hebrews 12, verse 10, right? They disciplined us for a little while, as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, which means no human parents perfect, but God is in order that we may share in His holiness, which is the ultimate character trait. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Okay? Painful. Well, you're not going to get painful out of gentle parenting. That's, that's a that's a different kind of parenting later on, however, produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who've been trained by it. So and then it says, Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees, like like challenge, right? Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed like basically, once you've been raised up now you'll be able to be a force in the world to bring rather than selfish acts to bear and on the world, you'll begin to act in a way that's selfless and mature and and will strengthen others. Which? Which is what you've become, Dave, which is one of the things I look at, and I see you and my other kids, and how well you're doing in life, and I look back, and I think I was definitely not the perfect father. And there are a lot of things I said or did that I'd like to undo or do over, but one of the things I'm grateful for is what you've become, right? And that's, that's really what the goal is. You know, one day you're going to look at James and Johnny, and you're going to say, look at what they've become, yeah? And it makes all these moments of where you're just totally stressed by the constant barrage of selfishness from a two year old, you know, that you have to deal with. That makes it
Unknown:worth it all. Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's a, it's a
Dave Leake:unique privilege and opportunity to be a father. And it's a, you know, every time you go through something, you understand something theoretically, until you experience and then it just is different, like being a dad of kids. I'm like, Oh,
Jeff Leake:now I know why you're so stressed.
Dave Leake:It's like, I'm saying that now, and I always heard people say that. I'm like, Yeah, that makes sense. It'll but like, you think you basically know what something feels like, until you have to feel it. And
Jeff Leake:I know this is it's gonna sound patriarchal to use a terminology here, but it's such an honor that we are given as men. The privilege of having the same title as God is to us. God is our Father. We get the chance to Father our kids. There also is the feminine side of how God treats us, right, like a mother with with his with her children. So God is is with us, right? He nurtures us. But in many ways, we represent God to our kids, because God is a father. He's given that name specifically in the New Testament, and our job is to represent him well, so that when James and Johnny grow up and they start to pray to God their father, they have seen a good representation of what fatherhood looks like from their dad.
Dave Leake:And I think that that picture is the right theological balance that we need to have in our minds. Because, you know, if we teach our kids well, we set them up to understand how God is like loving and gracious and merciful. You know what I mean for whenever we
Jeff Leake:do wrong to mess with,
Dave Leake:yeah, well, I mean, like, because He's holy, I think, I think if we're only Grace filled parents, then we don't really give a good picture of how God is to us, which is like, but you need to have a healthy fear and respect of God, you know. But I guess if we're at the same time, the opposite side would be if we're just judgmental and harsh and distant, then it's almost as if God doesn't have this relationship. A lot of
Jeff Leake:people in church don't know how to really relate to God the Father, because they had a really bad example. Sure, yeah. I mean, when you put it in that context, our job is to be a good reflection of God the Father, right? Poof. That's intense. That is intense and and yet I love that challenge. What an honor to represent God, the Father in that way and other in someone else's life. So that you raise kids that are growing up in an environment where, when they start to relate to God, they'll be like, Oh, I get this. Yeah,
Dave Leake:that's good. Yeah. So I don't even know if we ever directly, explicitly stated it, but I think there are a number of different kinds of discipline, disciplines that work, and I don't think that you have to be a spanking family to be a Christian, biblical family, if that feels like it's a conviction that you have, if you
Jeff Leake:found another mechanism that works and you haven't had to use that last resort. Awesome.
Dave Leake:Pastor Greg said he only had to look at his boys and they would stop. Greg, Jacob said, Pastor Greg, yeah, he said he's like, I never actually had to spank. Like, that's wonderful. Yeah.
Jeff Leake:It isn't an essential, right, right? Yeah, it, but it, it could be essential, yes, in some kids lives,
Dave Leake:that's, that's, that's exactly, and what is essential is correction and discipline that goes beyond just relational, yeah, empathetic connection. I
Jeff Leake:think that's with it, yeah, with all of that. But not, not, that's not the other side.
Dave Leake:Yeah, right, right? Exactly, yeah, exactly. Because, first and foremost, I think the job of a parent is to foster healthy children that learn to have a good relationship with God Yeah, and not just have peace and, you know, yeah in a household. So anyway,
Jeff Leake:so hey, just a little advertisement. Stay tuned for the character based parenting podcast that'll be coming up soon, that melody and I'll be doing together, and hopefully this episode was helpful to you as I'll be
Dave Leake:a regular listener on those I'll leave you with five stars as always.
Jeff Leake:We'd love to hear from you if you have a different point of view, or you want to give us some feedback, that would always be helpful.
Dave Leake:Absolutely. Yeah. And we just want to say, as always, thank you so much for joining us. You know, if you want to help us out, you can do a number of things. You could like and subscribe if you're on YouTube or leave a comment. We'd love to hear your thoughts if you want to share this. You know there's often a little arrow link that you can hit, and just hit text on your phone to one of your friends. You can leave us a five star review, whatever platform you're listening on, which is not that hard to do, or if it's on Apple podcast, we can see your name. We'll give you a shout out. So once again, we appreciate your time. Hope to see you guys again next time you.