Allison Park Leadership Podcast
A podcast where we have culture-creating conversations.
The world today is too complicated and messy for Christians to avoid tackling the difficult questions.
Hosted by Pastor Jeff Leake and his son Dave Leake, the Allison Park Leadership Podcast is a series of conversations designed to help Christians navigate challenging topics in our faith and culture today.
Allison Park Leadership Podcast
Biblical Roles of Men and Women: Controversy, Culture, and Christianity
Join us as we discuss the biblical roles of men and women as we dive into today’s most heated gender controversies.
This episode tackles the clash between Christianity and modern culture, addressing confusion around masculinity, femininity, and equality in the church and society.
Join us for a candid conversation that challenges stereotypes and explores whether the Bible’s teachings still make sense in a polarized world.
Welcome to Season 6 Episode 17 of the podcast. Subscribe to the Allison Park Leadership Podcast for more culture-creating conversations.
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Men and women. We're gonna talk about the differences between men and women, biblically, the roles men and women carry. Why is this so controversial in our culture?
Dave Leake:I think we live in a world that has a full on gender war. That's a pretty significant statement in terms of the conversations that are happening around the role of men and women, toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, power structures, patriarchy, all this stuff, what's a social construct versus what's a biblical pattern or precedent that we can look into oppressive there has been in order to sometimes win either side. There's been an attack on biblical manhood and there's been an attack on probably biblical womanhood too. Hey everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have culture creating conversations. My name is David leak and this is
Jeff Leake:my name is Jeff Leake. I'm Dave's dad and also lead pastor at Allison Park church. Dave's now transitioning from our staff to plan a church in Jacksonville, Florida. We're pumped about that, and we are glad you're with us for today's episode. Yeah,
Dave Leake:three more weeks, actually, three more weeks, and I'll be in Jacksonville, which is kind of wild,
Jeff Leake:maybe by the time you're listening to this, Dave's almost on you're a plane or driving,
Unknown:driving, driving. Okay, yeah, we need to get our car there too. So yeah,
Jeff Leake:that's right, that's the plan, 12 hour, 14 hour drive, something like
Dave Leake:that. Yeah, with little kids, that's probably 13. And then you add, and you had all the little kid stops, and it changes a bit, but it'll be good. We're excited. I just was having a conversation with James today trying to, like, prepare him for it. He's he'll be three at the end of the month, and he, he, I don't know, I'm a little he'll be fine, but it's hard to have this. I was like, Listen, buddy, like this house we're in right now, this is not going to be our house that much longer. Soon this will be somebody else house. We're gonna have this other one picture,
Jeff Leake:transition blue house. And people ask me all the time, oh, man, how do you feel about your son moving to Jacksonville? It's he's not in your town. But I always say this, my primary desire has always been for you guys, that you're wherever God wants you to be, and so I'm thrilled that you have clear direction, and that God has spoken to you, and I'm excited that you're planning a church, and we get to be a part of it. And there are worse places to visit than Jacksonville, Florida. It's very
Dave Leake:true well, and now we have other sons that are also sports fans for you, which is great because there was a long stretch of time where I was the only guy who went Steelers, or,
Jeff Leake:yeah, Chelsea Football. Caleb has become a Steelers fan. Josh is like leaning in more. Caleb actually likes soccer too. Watches the NBA.
Dave Leake:Yeah, exactly. So great. All right. Well, we'll get started in just a second. First want to just say quick thank you to everybody who's been part of the show. No new five star reviews to give a shout out for specifically. But if you would like to get your name shouted out, or whatever your moniker or alias is. If you want to go to Apple podcast, you can leave a five star review, and that just helps us spread the word anyway. Without further ado, let's get into it. So we tried an episode last time that we got through the whole thing, and then we realized just didn't feel right. Probably sort of needed to redo another episode on the same thing in the future. Basically, we're entering a conversation about men and women in marriage, and we can, we can get into that another
Jeff Leake:time. So technically, we had just done an episode on cohabitation, right, which is along the lines of biblical theology on sex and marriage. And then was we decided, let's do an episode on sex within marriage. Yeah, and so that's, that's the topic that we covered, and we quoted some people, and we showed a video. And after we felt like, not sure, we hit this one on the nose. So we punted on that, but this episode brought up a whole conversation of something we've really never addressed on the podcast thoroughly, and it's a huge cultural issue. It's a huge issue in the Christian community. And I actually get asked about this. Is this issue now, as much as anything else, in fact, I've had several people ask us to address this on the podcast. Yeah. So
Dave Leake:today we're gonna talk about according to the Bible, what is a man and what is a woman? Yes.
Jeff Leake:So we're gonna So, and this may be a part of a series where we'll probably get back to sex inside of marriage. We will, we will talk about roles, husband and wife. We'll talk about men and women. I think we did do an episode on husband. Is the husband still the head of the home
Dave Leake:yeah, but it might be a good update in the context of this series that a little
Jeff Leake:bit more and so maybe let's just start by asking the question, why is this so controversial, even bringing up the topic men and women, we're gonna talk about the differences between men and women, biblically, the roles men and women carry. Why is this so controversial in our culture? Because, because it is, it's, it is a it's controversial within the church, and it's controversial in culture. Well,
Dave Leake:okay, so let's just put to the side the gender fluidity conversation, okay? Because we're operating from a biblical, you know, biblical still. Event context, which,
Jeff Leake:although we may touch on that at some point in this conversation, it's not the primary topic to talk about gender fluidity,
Dave Leake:right? Well, I just mean, I guess if you're asking the question, what's a woman? That's a conversation in general that gets to the gender fluidity spectrum of which we don't subscribe to at all. We're operating from the biblical binary of male and female beyond
Jeff Leake:that, so which is a controversy in and of itself, in our culture, it already is. We're gonna sidestep that one for now.
Dave Leake:Yeah, we've hit that one a lot already. We could come back to that if we need to in the future. But in terms of this, I think we live in a world that has a full on gender war and a lot of ways, and it's, it's obviously very much in the secular culture in the West, but I definitely think it's made us well into the church too.
Jeff Leake:Okay, so that's a pretty significant statement, a full on
Dave Leake:gender war, yeah, socially, in terms of the conversations that are happening around the role of men and women, you know, differences are not different.
Jeff Leake:Toxicity, toxic masculinity, toxic femininity, power structures, patriarchy, all this stuff, patriarchy, that's a big word. Yeah, exactly. And so men's needs, women's needs. Are women responsible to take care of what men think is important? Vice versa in marriage, exactly?
Dave Leake:Are we conforming to social norms, or what's a social construct versus what's a biblical pattern or precedent that we can look into oppressive so we'll get into a lot of this. I can't promise we'll get into every single one of these things. We'll get into a lot of this. So yeah, I think this is, this is the and I guess let me, let me even broaden it. Here's, I think, why this feels important to me. I feel like in the middle of the Gender Wars in our culture and our broader culture wars, there has been in order to sometimes win either side. There's been an attack on biblical manhood, and there's been an attack on, probably biblical womanhood too, on masculinity, on femininity, and sometimes it gets lost in the mess, where you can end up feeling like animosity or resentment towards one perspective, or, I mean, in the worst case, towards a gender, towards men in general, towards women in general. And that's just simply not a godly perspective. It's not what God wants. God's designed us to live in harmony and in unity and to be an example of the world around us. So it's kind of crazy, but like, where do you want to start with this? It's sort of broad and wide. I have some thoughts.
Jeff Leake:But well, first of all, I would just say when you when you started to talk about it, I can see the passion in your eyes. So this is going to be a good episode, because typically, what makes this podcast work? People will say, How long do you take to prepare? To prepare for episodes? Well, Dave prepares somewhat, and then I just basically respond out of so I don't do a lot of prep for it. So what really makes the podcast work is that you're curious, upset, disturbed, and you bring that to the table, which is which is beautiful, hopefully not disturbed, too much disturbed as a human being. I mean, like disturbed inwardly about something, right, right? So, you know, because of the tension this brings, I think, I think people are leaning in. So let's go ahead. Where
Dave Leake:do we start? So let's just start with this. Do you feel like, I mean, this is sort of a dumb, obvious question. Let me not give you too bad of NLU. But you know, I'll say this, are men and women different, created differently by God, or is that something society has put on us? And if so, what do you see as some of the differences? Just to start,
Jeff Leake:so are we talking scientifically or biblically, whichever way you want to go. Well, obviously we're different scientifically, right? I mean, that's an obvious thing, okay, in the generative gender fluidity conversation, that's not obvious to everybody, but our chromosomes are different. Our anatomy is different. There are some things that that it appears that women have a certain wiring to do that men can't do, like have a baby, right? Nurse that child out of its own body so that it is able to survive. I mean, there's just a lot of things that women are capable of that men aren't capable of. And I guess the controversial piece is when you say and there are some things that men are capable of that women are not capable not capable of. That is where the controversy comes in. Because I think there have been times in history where that the the narrative has been men are so much better than women, it's like a superiority thing, and therefore women should always be subservient to men, sure, but I think there is this feeling, I think, amongst a lot of men in our culture, that women are celebrated for the uniqueness they provide to the world, but men are oftentimes diminished in an attempt to elevate women. There's been a, probably, an attempt to diminish men, which has left a lot of guys. Yeah, with a lack of identity and confidence in who they're supposed to be. Yeah, so, but are there things that men can do that women can't do? Well, okay, there have never been any female Navy SEALs because they can't pass the fitness tests or whatever tests they use to qualify people. So when you come to the highest level of being a warrior to defend our country or to rescue people who are being attacked, Navy Seals have traditionally only been men, because up until now, no female has been able to demonstrate the necessary physical strength or stamina to do that. So that would be one example. We'd say, scientifically, well, so far anyway, no woman's been able to do that. I guess if somebody eventually did that still doesn't take away the idea that men are stronger than women physically, not universally. There might be some women stronger than some men, individually, but, but that as a trend, there's a certain standard set that the strongest of men are the strongest amongst us biologically. Yeah,
Dave Leake:sure. Okay, so maybe let's get into this biblically. Why don't we? Why don't we just start though with with what's common in terms of biblically, and then we'll move on from there like I think. So I think that the first thing that we have to hit that's important to understand is that both men and women are created in the image of God, right?
Jeff Leake:Equal in that way? Yeah. Well, honestly,
Dave Leake:okay, we're going to talk about differences, but I think throughout this whole conversation, we're talking about equality of two genders, but we're talking about differences in strengths. So So equal in every way, in a sense, but different in terms of strengths and weaknesses in some ways versus others. And by the way, I just even think that part of the conversation sometimes is uncomfortable to start in our cultural like whenever you were saying there are some things that matter better at the women aren't. I think that that's that's a thing that's hard to say. But listen, part of why I feel passionate about this is I think that as church leaders, pastors, we're called to elevate both genders. Women should be elevated and be able to fill their God given roles and and callings and all that God has for them in their destiny. And so Should men, and we shouldn't be blasting what God created or taking it down a notch, as if femininity or masculinity is the pinnacle of creation that we have the subservient or lesser one. Yeah. But so right?
Jeff Leake:Because, so I think one of the reasons that maybe there's this reaction against masculinity is that women have been hurt by a man who was toxic. And then what has happened is, out of that hurt, a narrative has formed to say all men are toxic unless they act feminine or masculine traits in general, yes, and so it comes from a place of wound. So when somebody is saying, Well, this is this is true. It's true most of the time. It oftentimes comes from a place of wound because someone somewhere has been hurt, or it's either you've been wounded, or maybe you've taken up an offense for someone or for a group of people. And so now we're pain with a broad brush, masculinity, bad, femininity, good, but it often comes from pain. But this is really hurting men, especially so women are often hurt. Yes, they're coming out of a wound. But I think a lot of men, because of this broad brush, masculinity, bad, femininity, good, has really affected men deeply, right?
Dave Leake:Okay, so biblically, first of all, you know, Genesis 127, says, So God created man in His own image. And the image of God, He created him, male and female. He created them. That's in the beginning of creation. After God creates the world. On day six, he creates animals and man. And the pinnacle of this creation is male and female, men and women, humans down
Jeff Leake:to the DNA, down to the chromosomes, XX, XY, different, but both human beings, both loved by God, both equally valuable,
Dave Leake:yeah, both both created to be in relationship with one another and with God and with God, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think it was Tim Mackey that talks about this, and I love the way he talks about the idea of of image, the image of God, you know, being this idea that in the ancient near, near East world, they would kings would sometimes have statues erected that would be a symbol of their authority and reign in an area. And so a lot of times, the thinking is for the idea of image of God. It's not just that we look physically like him or have his traits, but that were meant to be his image, his his, you know, rulers with him over the earth as sort of like, I don't know what you would call that, but submitted, but having authority over the world to steward it in a good and healthy and loving way, the same way that God would. So men and women created equally. Created. Both the image of God meant to be in relationship with God and others. I think another thing we see, though, is that they're clearly, and you mentioned this, they're distinct and different by design and complementary and complementary. Yeah, I was just going to read this Genesis 218 says the Lord God said it is not good. The man should be alone. I will make, make him, and I'm reading an old translation and help meet for Amir. I'll put, put in different translation here in a second,
Jeff Leake:make a suitable help meet. Yeah, that what it says in one translation to
Dave Leake:let's see. Try that again. Okay? It's yeah. It says it's not good for man. Be alone. I'll be I will make a helper suitable for him. There we go. I was reading it off translation there for a second, yeah. So they're meant to complement
Jeff Leake:each other. That line is offensive to some people, all right, yeah, a biblical line, sure. So we can't get rid of the Bible, but it for some people that would, they would have a problem with that sentence. There, man is created first, women is his helper. That almost says second secondary, right? So it is second because in succession, man was first and the woman was second, sure. But it's not secondary, just simply, because, I guess you would say, if we would say it in a more complete form, it would be a partner to compliment him in every way.
Dave Leake:Yeah, I don't remember i I'm talking from memory of how what I heard a theologian just mentioned, but I believe the word that's there for helpers, word that's actually used for God and the Holy Spirit a number of times as well. Okay, that he's, he's our helper. Yes. Okay, so when we see the word helper, which I think is this word, azer, it's the same word that we have as God being our helper a number of times. So it's not, it's not necessarily a derogatory, subservient role,
Jeff Leake:but some people read that into it. Right? By the way, I have a friend who often will say about his wife when making a decision, he will say, I like do you want to go? And he'll say, I don't have to check with the Holy Spirit like my that's my wife, what she thinks, which is interesting, that it's the same word, because that's actually how we should make decisions spiritually, is we should check with the Holy Spirit, who is our helper?
Dave Leake:Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So they're made distinct. They're made to combat one another. You know, it's not just relationship where it's alone versus not alone, it's also Eve was made in a way that would help compensate for some of the weaknesses or areas that Adam wasn't you know that he needed help with. Is the idea, right?
Jeff Leake:And vice versa? Yeah.
Dave Leake:Okay, third thing I guess we can sort of talk through biblically, is that the fall distorted relationships. Okay, it's true between men and women and also with God.
Jeff Leake:So in the garden before the fall, They complimented one another perfectly. They covered for each other's weaknesses. They supported one another. There was no rivalry, there was no toxicity, there was intimacy. After the fall, Adam blames Eve, Eve blames the devil, and they begin to hide from one another and from God, right? Yeah, and
Dave Leake:and then even in the curse, when we see in Genesis, 316, this is a complicated verse, But he talks about pain and labor and childbirth, and then he says, and your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you.
Jeff Leake:Okay, let's slow down on that one that's in the Bible
Unknown:we better read that whole verse. Yeah, we probably have to talk about
Dave Leake:that. Okay, so let's, let's start. We'll start here with which one do I want to hit? Okay, well, we'll just start with Genesis, 312, God asks, essentially them, what happened here? Why'd you eat the fruit? And then Adam says, The woman you put here with me, she gave me some of the fruit from the tree, and I ate it. Verse 13, then the Lord said to the Lord God, said, What is this you've done? The woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate. So the serpent, or the Lord God, said to the serpent, Because you have done this. And then he goes on to talk about the curse of sin that's brought in the world. Specifically, here to the serpent says, Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals. You will crawl on your belly. You will eat dust all the days of your life, and I will put enmity between you and the woman, between her your offspring and hers,
Jeff Leake:meaning the devil, right. And mean between the devil and the woman and her offspring, which is all of us. Yeah.
Dave Leake:And then it says, He will crush your head and you will strike his heel, which is a reference to Jesus dying on the cross, being, you know, having conquering evil. Yeah, yeah. He temporarily was killed, but came back to life. That's the striking of his heel. But he ultimately crushed the head of the devil, one permanent victory. Then to the woman, he said, I will make your pains and childbearing very severe. With painful labor, you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you. Okay, let's read the man's and then we'll come back. Is that That's that little phrase. Is a part of the curse. Let's keep reading. We'll come back to keep reading. Keep reading. Okay, to Adam, he said, Because you listened to your wife and ate, ate fruit from the tree, about which I commanded you, you must not eat from it. Curse the ground because of you. Through painful toil, you will eat food from it all the days of your life. Will produce thorns and thistles, and you eat the plants of the field by the sweat of your brow. You will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken For dust you are and to dust you will return. And then we move on from there. But that's essentially the curse
Jeff Leake:there. Okay, so how do you interpret that? Jay,
Unknown:I'll let you take the first Oh, come on, you brought this up.
Jeff Leake:Yeah. So I guess there's a couple ways you could look at this. Sure. You could say, before the fall, before the curse, Adam and Eve both had a desire for God and an appropriate desire for each other. They were not dependent on one another. They were dependent on God, and they They complimented one another perfectly. Potentially, there was no pain in childbirth for a woman, and the work that they did was a joy, and it was not a pain after the curse. All that changes. So the idea of the whim woman having a desire for her husband, meaning almost like a dependency, and that the husband would become a ruler. To her, that almost sounds like when Israel asks for a king, you know what I mean? And he says, if you get a king and you don't have me and as the leader of your life anymore, you're not going to like this. It's going to be very painful. So is this built into the curse and doesn't represent the redemptive model, so that, like when Jesus comes and he he does destroy the devil, and he goes through the pain of the cross, and he comes out on the other side, resurrected from the dead, Jesus, on the other side, redeems us from the curse of the law and all that comes with it, like sickness can be healed and emotional wounds can be, you know, restored. Does this also rescue women the death and resurrection of Jesus from the curse of being incomplete without their husband and therefore being completed in Christ, you're no longer in a dependency status, and you can go back into this beautiful interdependence that happened in the Garden of Eden. So so is that tendency like we could read into that, that curse statement and say, See, women will always be dependent on men, and men are supposed to rule over them. But I'm not actually sure that that's a part of God's original creation design, or if that's a part
Dave Leake:of the fall Okay, so let me, let me give some different take on it. Okay, so there's there's a number of commentaries that say, really, the idea is that your desire will be for your husband's role or leadership. That's what they talk about. Oh, so, like, a jealous thing, yeah? Like, so, so, you know, reading from the expositors Bible Commentary, okay? The the biggest blessings in the garden for Adam and Eve is family and children, you know, marriage and offspring. And so he actually addresses two things here, with the fall, with the curse you'll, you know, put it back to my first translation, because I like that better. Here he talks about pain and childbearing. Here we go. I will intensify your labor pains. You will bear children with painful effort. Your desire will be for your husband. He will roll over for you. So the idea that they say is, the desire is for leadership or and it's like an animosity. So where before there was a perfect harmony,
Jeff Leake:there was so rather than compliment, you're going to compete with him. Yes, yes. And the in the curse isn't that the woman has a desire for her husband, it's that she's the ones that compete with him.
Dave Leake:Yeah, yes, and, and, and what it says he will rule over you.
Jeff Leake:I've never heard that before. Yes, that's an interesting take. Okay, unpack that for me. Unpack which part of it. Well, the competing, if give me the theory of competition.
Dave Leake:The theory of competition is that here, let me pull this back up. You're catching me up, catching me off guard.
Unknown:So you brought it up as the expository is commentary, yeah, yeah. Like would say.
Dave Leake:So I'm reading here from the expositors Bible Commentary. It says God's words of judgment relate to these two points. What was to be the woman's source of blessing to be marriage
Jeff Leake:party. Slow down. Slow down. I want to make sure we get it okay. What was to be the woman's
Dave Leake:source of blessing to be a marriage partner and to have children is now tainted by the curse in those moments of life's greatest blessing, marriage and children, the woman will now most painfully feel the consequence of her foolish act. Okay? So the idea is there's now going to be discord and enmity and competition and and whatever between you and your husband, and there's also now going to be pain childbirth. Okay, what about the phrase that says, and he will rule over you? That's a great question, because I'll come back to that, yeah, because the what I'm reading right now doesn't have enough on that for me to give a good stand. Amen. Okay. The other part, though, is we're talking about the curse. So childbirth still exists, even after the cross or child child labor, pain, excuse me, and man's curse is you're going to be you're supposed to work, but now it's going to resist you. You're supposed to have you know your enjoyment and satisfaction from ruling over the earth the way that God wants you to be a good steward. But now you're gonna have thorns and thistles and labor. What is it? Thorns thistles? You'll eat bread by the sweat of your brow until you return to ground. You're gonna have to work hard and you're gonna sweat, and it's now gonna be a life of toil for you, whereas before, he just had dominion and rulership. Now there's that part also hasn't changed, you know? So like, God made people, both men and women, for roles and for work, but now the kind of work that people are going to do is going to be frustrating. Work. It's going to be resisted work, another part of this that still is a part of the way that we live in the world today. So obviously, the curse
Jeff Leake:So husband and wife, men and women are going to compete with each other, and all their efforts will be frustrated.
Dave Leake:Yeah, childbirth pains, work for work is gonna be frustrated, and there's gonna be discord in the family. Now there's gonna be where a woman Allison desire as for, I've heard her husband's head isn't how Another translation says like that the anyway, we'll come back to this in a second. Feel like I'm doing a sloppy job. I
Jeff Leake:think I got the point. Okay, it's interesting. I'm not sure which theory of it I agree with, but I think that at least sets up the tension of the conversation. So that's good. Okay, so what do we what do we conclude from this? What does this mean for us? In 222, 1025,
Dave Leake:well, part of what it means is that men and women are created by God, okay, with differences, and it's it is good for a woman to be a woman, and every sense of what that means, you know, to the glory of God, like representing God to the world, and to her family, and to if she's married to her husband, and it's good for a man to be a man, and all that that goes goes along with it. And I think both genders are created with dignity and with their own form of
Jeff Leake:glory, and we shouldn't be competing with each other. We should be working to get back into the complimenting one another in the way that we function. But does that mean that there are limits on what a woman can be and what a man can be in terms of the roles in the world?
Unknown:Well, there's a lot of different perspectives,
Jeff Leake:because, because, if you, if you take it from one angle, you would say, and therefore women should primarily be concerned with being a wife and a mother, and men should go out and work, and men should have authority over the home, and women should just deal with because they don't want to compete with him like that's the extreme end of one side of the spectrum would be that mindset, which I think over centuries, it's been taught that way, but I'm not sure that's what the passage is like. Okay, some things happen that are described in biblical passages that we look back and we say, I understand what that was intended to say. And then the application of that is where we oftentimes take this huge leap. And we say, because it says this here, the application of that means women are limited and men has, you know, unlimited authority. That application gets scrap extrapolated out to where it's really not the intended meaning of that particular passage.
Dave Leake:No, no, definitely, definitely not. Yeah, there's a number of different views, but what I would say is the one thing the Bible is clear on, and this is going to sound like the most dumb, obvious statement, but that women should be women, you know what I mean, and men should be men, meaning they're what does that mean, though? Well meaning, meaning this, they're not the same. It's okay that they're not the same. And I think like women are not called to be husbands, and husband men are not called to
Jeff Leake:be wives. Do you know what I'm saying? All right, keep going. Give me more give me more statements like that. Okay, so meaning,
Dave Leake:I think that that what we see represented in the Bible, both are, both are created by God. Both are, you know, beautiful by design. Both have distinctions. We even see a number of those. We can get into those. Some of those case. So we have a couple of different areas that we can get into in the future, and maybe these will be future podcast topics to do a fuller dive on. One of those would be in terms of leadership, or whether we're talking about ministry leadership or otherwise. And another one we would be talking about is marriage, and often those get fused together, like you have one stance. Women can be leaders, both in the church or in the workplace or at home, or they can't be and women should be
Jeff Leake:silent, or this is now the controversy in the church, exactly. Okay, okay, well, you danced around a lot of things there, so Dave, we probably should come back a little bit to it. So let me, let me, normally, I'm the one. You're the one asking the questions, but I'm the one that's being curious. This episode. So because you've done a lot of research on this, and this is obviously something you've been wrestling through. So does this mean that we can describe the uniqueness of women and the uniqueness of men and their differences without that being offensive, like, for instance, a lot of marriage teaching when, when I was kind of coming up in the 80s and 90s, and first married was Women Are From Mars or men and for Venus, or vice versa. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. This was a secular book that described how men and women are distinct from each other in communication styles and emotions and the way they respond and understanding how a woman is and how a man is important in order for you to relate to each other. Gary Smalley was famous for this and talking about how women typically are this way, one way they have, you know, what is? Who's the guy that says, I think it was Gary Smalley that there is a chemical that separates at birth men's brain the left and right hand side, so that we compartmentalize and we think, whereas theirs are a little more fused together, because the testosterone released when a son is born burns the connection in your brain. So he would always joke, men are slightly brain damaged and then and then. But women's doesn't have that disconnect. And so they think more holistically, whereas men think more in categories, because there is this physical difference in the anatomy during birth. And so he would then take that and describe how men tend to compartmentalize and categorize things. And women have a tendency to sort of communicate in a very holistic way, where they'll mix subjects together and moments together and memories together. And so this is why sometimes there's a struggle in communication between a man and a woman. But that teaching that men and women are distinct, that men women tend to be more emotional and men tend to be more logical. Okay, those when you start to describe that in this era, that comes across very offensive, because it says all women must be this, all men must be this. And so there's a stereotype, and when you describe it that way, you're limiting people. And so what I'm asking the question is, and I'm leading you with, I think, what is the answer is, I don't think we can ignore the fact that there are emotional differences between men and women, as a general rule, and that there are physical differences between men and women as a general rule, and that understanding the opposite sex is as a husband is key at learning how my wife thinks and feels. Now she's also an individual, which makes I have to understand her. She's She's not like just any woman. She's a very specific woman, but there are certain things that are true of melody, that are also true of your wife Sarah, that are also true of other women, right? So it's almost become anathema to describe those differences, because I totally agree of the gender war.
Dave Leake:And some things are going to be from straight from the Bible. Some things are more sociological, like they're based on scientific studies, and things, all of them are controversial. And I think you sort of hit it earlier on the episode, especially as two men that are talking about men and women. The the
Jeff Leake:almost makes this conversation invalid. Yeah. The
Dave Leake:difficulty is that if we describe things and it's like, Well, men are better in these ways, at these things and women are better, these ways, these things that there can be a feeling of like man we think men are superior.
Jeff Leake:We are mansplaining Exactly. But okay, let me just say this, and that's what makes pastoring difficult, sure, because as a pastor, I'm responsible to speak into every issue in life like I can't take my pastoral hat off because I'm a man. I have to give commentary to anything in life if I'm going to pastor effectively, and I need to teach that out of the word. And I can't say I'm disqualified from talking about this because this is more of a female thing, because that's not how the Bible describes leadership, pastoral leadership. You know, we're supposed to be shepherds of the flock, and that that's both men and women. Now we should be humble enough to listen to other points of view. We should probably be informed by where we may be off we might we should listen. We should stay empathetic, but we should still talk about it like it's not bad for us to have this conversation as pastors, because it is our responsibility to wade our way through what is a gender war and try to bring health and healing in the body of Christ. So whether we'll hit that on the mark or not, this is where you have to forgive us, if for any missteps, but this is what we're attempting to do.
Dave Leake:So yeah, so Okay, so once again, I do think, and I have some bastards here, we could talk about, we can describe some of the traits based on some of the differences in some of the instructions that are given to men or women in the New Testament.
Jeff Leake:That helps. That's the safest place. Yeah, when you stay biblical, that's the safest place. But what.
Dave Leake:Would say is, I think everybody, regardless has to your stance or your feelings. Should every, every Christian should be championing the idea of both genders fully understanding who God's called them to be, not boxing ourselves in, but like leaning into the God given gifts and strengths and abilities and being fully appreciative and respectful and honoring of the opposite genders strengths and abilities and callings, because I think, I think it's, it's not good to act like they're the same. And it's not good act like either is inferior. You sort of mentioned a time whenever you felt like women were treated inferiorly and that men were viewed as the superior gender. Was that like, was that when you were growing up? Is that before your time? Is it just in different circles? I mean, I think still today, there are circles that talk like that.
Jeff Leake:Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I was growing up, so I'm born in 1964 and the era just prior to my birth was, was very much a man dominating women in the in the home. Thing I saw this little clip on Instagram, Dave, and it it was an interview with guys on the street New York City. And the host of the news program was saying, when is it listen, when is it appropriate to spank your wife, that's insane. And the answer was, that's crazy. Well, sometimes when this happens or that happens, so, so, but let's just say spanking in general. Like, for instance, I was listening one of my favorite sports radio shows is Dan Patrick show, and he did this whole thing in a recent episode about when he was in junior high. He was spanked. Well, I was spanked. I got I got into a fight in seventh grade, and they pulled us aside, pulled us into the principal's office, and they gave us three swats with a paddle in the principal's office and sent us on our way home. And so, like, that was normal. So, so there was a lot of things in the culture back in the 1950s and 60s that now is, like, seen as, what are you talking about? Okay, so, but men were definitely so. Men were definitely seen as the boss, and women were to serve their husbands, and it was with lots of limitations, and was way over the top. And oftentimes the Bible was used to justify that kind of behavior. And I think since that time, both better biblical interpretation and cultural change has made things better for women in general, in all facets of life, in Western culture, however, culture war, I mean, you say a gender war is part of the curse. It's not part of the kingdom, right? So in order for women to win, men have to lose. In order for men to win, women have to lose. That mindset that we're against each other is clearly not how God designed us to function, right? And if you are a part of the gender war, you're not helping anybody, you're not helping women, you're not helping men, you're actually just part of a destructive force that's trying to dismantle society so that eventually you can rebuild something better and so. So I think that we have to say the war is bad. The progress that have been made in many areas has been really good because it was way imbalanced towards men and was not biblical, yet it was just culture the
Dave Leake:same time, though, I do think there has been damage done to masculinity, into men in general, and I and just just talking about this principle, and as I think we have to take one down, yeah, to empower the other. I think both, both candidates should be elevated, which is what we're hoping to do, you know, and conversations like
Jeff Leake:these. And when masculinity suffers as a byproduct, women suffer
Dave Leake:too. I totally agree. Yeah, well, I mean, probably, I guess it's hard to ever label something as the biggest, but maybe in competition for the biggest problem in America and Western society is fatherlessness. Yeah, it's men leaving their homes and their responsibilities, and single moms having to do that. And you know, young kids not having fathers in the household to model and to protect and to promote to provide for their family, all this kind
Jeff Leake:of stuff, or men that never grow up and never act like a father and or a husband.
Dave Leake:And that is a problem of men that we can solve partially by defining what manhood looks like for a man, yes,
Jeff Leake:because when you model of it, yeah, pointing people to what good, healthy biblical masculinity looks like, and having women willing to celebrate what healthy good masculinity looks like 100% and to support it, even if it's imperfect, exactly, okay.
Dave Leake:So let me just give some instructions to men and instructions to women that we see listed in the Bible, in the New Testament, that can kind of give us some picture of what we see with some differences. You still engaged with me? I'm absolutely engaged. Great. Okay, so number one in First Corinthians, 1613, Paul says, Be on your guard. I'm. Um, stand firm in the faith. Be courageous, be strong. Let me pull up the fuller context. Act
Jeff Leake:like a man. Act like, yeah, there we go. First, Corinthians, 15. I love that verse,
Dave Leake:yeah. Wait, let me yeah. I'll read that more in a second. So he's talking about lead with courage and strength,
Jeff Leake:yeah? Which is a masculine trait? Which one is courage and strength? Well, yeah, that verse, he actually uses the phrase, act like a man. Yeah, right, right, okay, but not limiting it to men. He was basically saying it went under pressure. We should take the healthy masculine trait of courage and honor and resilience, and we should all act like that that wasn't just reserved for men. It was for everybody, but we he was actually using mask healthy masculinity as a model for everyone to imitate when in the rigors of spiritual war.
Dave Leake:Again, just let me say this one more time, this does have to be a put down for women for it to be true of men. And men, when they act like this, are the kind of men that women want to be around yeah. They want husbands and sons and fathers and whatever, friends to act like this, to stand up against evil and injustice, you know, to protect people, to Yeah, to be on their guard. I love this. Stand firm in the faith. Be courageous. Be strong. Okay, number two that I have here listed is treat women with honor and understanding. First. Peter three talks about this, says husbands in the same way, be considerate as you live with your wives and treat them with respect. I
Unknown:guess that's the one that says the this is the read it out loud as the weaker
Dave Leake:partner and as heirs with the grace of the gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. We're just getting in all controversy here, but I guess it's probably good that we read what the Bible says and talk through it
Jeff Leake:well, it's in the Bible, yeah, first, 237,
Dave Leake:other translations of this. Okay, yep, all right, so now I'll read it in the CSB husband this same
Jeff Leake:way. So wait, wait, you got to slow down because Okay, and let me just say, if this has triggered you, you're listening to this podcast. Take a deep breath. We're going to unpack this verse, and actually, you learn the most from the verses that bother you. Great. Okay, so just because it bothers you doesn't mean it's wrong. And now we're going to talk about how to interpret it properly, how to apply it, which is really key when we come up against a verse that disturbs us, so go slow. Actually, this is the verse that I quote when I tell the story of Mel and I were fighting. I had sort of left the house in Huff. I got to my office, I knelt down in my office to pray, and I felt like the heavens were brass, like he wasn't hearing me at all. And I was wondering what in the world's going on? And then I had memorized this verse. What does it say? Husbands, be considerate
Dave Leake:same way. Be considered as you live with your wives and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder
Jeff Leake:your prayers. And I felt the Holy Spirit say to me, I'm not going to listen to you until you go make it right with your wife. So I got up, called or said, I'm coming home, apologized, we made up. I came back to church, and then I felt like I could pray, okay. But then packed into this amazing verse, which really helped my marriage, is the phrase the weaker partner. And when I teach on this verse, I always say this means more sensitive. I think that's one of the phrases. But I guess you could say technically it is probably in most cases, physically weaker, not weak, but weaker, right? Not as physically as strong and more sensitive. Now, this is one of these things that in the 80s and 90s, no one had a problem with admitting women were a little bit more sensitive than men, and men, oftentimes their problem was that they were too insensitive. Now this is this has become real controversial because it feels demeaning,
Dave Leake:sure, right? Well, I'm also seeing that a lot of commentaries are like, looking at several, should say, not a lot. I'm looking at several that I have just pulled up. Are talking about weakness, also it would be vulnerability. Okay, so I mean, because that's more vulnerable, more sensitive, right? More at risk. Yeah, exactly.
Unknown:Castle saw like, more vulnerable. You got to introduce yourself on an episode. Yeah. So backtrack for a minute. We in the last episode that didn't go so well that we chose not to publish. We said to Matt, you really need a microphone so that you can insert yourself into conversations and rescue us when we're headed down a bad path. And so producer, Matt, welcome to the program. Go ahead and tell us. What are you thinking? Thank you for welcoming me like a mystery voice out of nowhere, like Hey, God is speaking to us. Yeah. So I was just looking it up as well, and I also saw I never heard this before, but it could also refer to a social vulnerability in the first century world, which all. Also goes into, I was looking up the Genesis, they will Lord over you, and you'll try to control them. So there's that same word for control is also used when Eve tries to control Cain. And so that's this idea that Eve tries to control Cain. Cain, yeah, when she's trying to get him to do the right thing, she wants to, like, control him, manipulate him. Yeah, manipulate. And the idea is that because of the fall that men will Lord over them, which is, if you look at history, that's what happened. But then the women will want to control men in the midst of that. But it's not necessarily a picture of, like, how it was meant to be, yeah?
Jeff Leake:Okay, so then we'll assert dominance, and women will try to subvert through manipulation. Yeah, I know that sounds harsh with the way I
Unknown:said it in the sinful but not that's part of the curse kingdom, yeah, part of the curse.
Jeff Leake:So if the curse is is, so I understand, the ground is still cursed. We still Terrell for our labor. There's still pain in childbirth. But this is a relational decisional thing. It's not atmospherical meaning that well, but
Dave Leake:it is the way that men and women relationships are pre sanctification,
Jeff Leake:yes, but when we come into the kingdom and Jesus breaks the curse over our life, men should not seek to dominate women, and women should not seek to manipulate men, we would say that's part of the restoration that comes is that we start to treat each other in the complimentary way that God created them in the garden before the fall, that we rise above our base instinct to compete with each other and dominate each other, and we begin to complement one another and help one another become the best they can be. And that, I guess, is that I love, I love that man that was very valuable, how you added that into the mix. So a man who's complimenting his wife as a husband is providing for her a level of protection because of the additional vulnerability that she experiences, because of the social context of women always being stepped on in the world, and because of maybe an emotional sensitivity that she has, that a man doesn't have the quite the same way, and because of any spiritual vulnerability, because technically, one of the things that a man is supposed to do is provide covering for his entire family, which includes his wife, meaning that through his spiritual leadership, he's supposed to shield her from attacks that could hit her, that through his prayers and his leadership, he provides a covering for her, and so in that sense, most women would say a godly man who's trying to do that from the right attitude, the right not from dominance, but from service and From strength. That's something most women in a marriage context would be grateful for.
Dave Leake:Yeah. Well, just so going back to First Peter three seven for a second. So the context of this is, if you want your prayers to be heard, husbands, you need to act in a certain way, because if you don't, your prayers are going to be
Jeff Leake:hindered. And it actually the phrase in the same way, it's used multiple times in that passage, and it refers back to the way Jesus suffered for us. So it's actually saying as as a servant suffers as Jesus suffered for you. This is how you're supposed to treat each other. And then verses one and two of chapter three. First, Peter three says, wise in the same way, submit to your husbands. And then it says in verse seven, husbands, be considerate as you live with your wives. And in each place, it says in the same way, just like Jesus suffered for us, wives in the same way, submit to your husbands. Husbands in the same way, be considerate with your wives. And then verse 11 says, maybe it's verse nine. Finally, all of you should in the same way, respond like Jesus responded, and it's, it has this, it's this willingness to lay down your life. Yeah?
Dave Leake:Verse eight, finally, all of you, be like minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble,
Jeff Leake:yeah, yeah. Well, I've actually memorized these verses because they're so key, I think, to being a good husband. Yeah?
Dave Leake:So, so, like, the the wrong way to use this verse would be to power up, to use this as ammo to show why somebody is better. And that's also the exact opposite of what the verse is saying. It is
Jeff Leake:he's like it's saying, be like Jesus who died for you, and express that uniquely, as a wife would to her husband, and as a husband would to
Dave Leake:his wife at the same time, what I will say is what I part of, what I feel like I'm pushing for in our conversation here. I think that we have to be able to discuss what the Bible talks about is differences between men and women. I don't think in any so to Matt's Matt's comment about the social context being vulnerable, that that is obviously a fact. That was the case, but it probably there's a very good chance he's not referring only to the socio sociological vulnerability that they would have had, and more to gender, he says, as the weaker partner, but it doesn't mean anything inferior. And he's talking about, he says, be considered with I treat them with respect. Because, God. Cares enough about women in this context, he's saying that he's not going to listen to your prayers if you're not treating them this way with consideration and respect. I think like this is the beauty of a biblical view of genders, is there can be differences, and it's okay for in some contexts, a men a man, to have additional, what's the right word, requirements or responsibility to put on him to be strong for your wife, in a way that wives are not committed or commanded to be strong for their husbands. Both need to be strong for each other, but there are differences, and there's an emphasis put on men being strong for wives, or else God's not going to listen to your prayer. That's not a bad thing. And I think if we bulk every time there's a gender distinction, as if you're saying women are worse, it's gonna it like complicates it and it's not faithful to what the Bible talks about. Does that make sense? Yes.
Jeff Leake:Okay, so, so here's I guess. Okay, let's go back to the beginning. There is a gender war in our culture. There's been a gender war in our churches. I'm not saying Allison Park church. I'm saying in general, okay, if you read power dynamics into every biblical verse about men and women, you are not going to get most out of those verses, because you won't be approaching them with the right spirit. You actually have to read those verses and read them as a husband or a wife would read them, or a male or female would read them and say, Holy Spirit. Speak to me out of this. The other thing is, there is no power dynamic in these verses, because we mentioned in the same way, refers to the attitude of Jesus, servanthood and willingness to die for us, right? So you can't take that as the context for it and read a power dynamic into it. But here's the objection, Dave, I can actually hear someone saying this to me. For 1000s of years, we've had these scriptures about gender roles, and for 1000s of years, women were kept at a place of limitation inappropriately because people misapplied these verses. So how can we just throw away 2000 years of women being mistreated and expect that simply by having a biblical conversation about gender roles, women's progress will continue? So what would you say that?
Dave Leake:Well, what do we mean? What are we defining by progress? Like, are we defining like, right to vote and we're talking about women's rights within American context, I think if we're talking about equality of value,
Jeff Leake:well we're probably talking about, I think women potentially are treated better in marriage contexts today than they would have been if men are spanking their wives in 1955 Yeah, and they're not doing that today. That's progress.
Dave Leake:When you say, okay, yeah, yes, in that specific sense, yes. But at the same time there, there's like, I think we're using we're talking as if where we are today socially, that husbands and wives are in a better place across the board than they were back then. But why is the divorce rate higher than it ever was like, why is, why is like, the nuclear family structure worse than it never was? I don't know that. Are
Jeff Leake:we so stressed out? Why do we Why is it required to survive, to be to income home? Why? Why just? Why is there so much loneliness
Dave Leake:saying we should go back? And I'm certainly not advocating any violence, like spanking towards women, or any of the stuff that's gone overlooked like that. That certainly is progress to get to where we are today. I'm not advocating we go backwards, but I am saying we tend to do this thing, like where we look at where we are now, as everything, everything has progressed, but I don't know that it always
Jeff Leake:has. Okay? So that's a very good point, and this probably applies in many different conversations. Our goal should not be progress. It should be alignment with biblical truth. That's the kind of progress that I'm talking about, okay, right? And where we were not aligned with biblical truth before, and women were being taken advantage of or demeaned or whatever. That was wrong then, but our goal now is not the advancement of women. It's to both men and women together align with biblical truth, which we believe is the key to living the best kind of life. But more than that, living a life that's according to God's design and that's pleasing in His sight?
Dave Leake:Yeah. I believe God wants the advancement, advancement of women. I think God has the highest value for women out of anybody. Yeah, and I but like when we're talking about our husbands today treating their wives with letter with more respect and care and value than they were in the 1950s and our wives treating their husbands with more love and honor and respect than they were. I don't know that we've progressed necessarily as a whole. I'm not right.
Jeff Leake:Probably men as a as a trend, may not be doing the kinds of male dominance things that they used to do, but they just may be not showing up in the home like they are. They lean to. Right? And there's a different problem. It's not, it's not authoritative, authoritarian abuse, or they're not taking stands. Yeah, it's that they just aren't leading. There are sometimes, there may be passive, not all men, of course, yeah, of course. And and women who now have a lot more opportunity might not necessarily be healthier, I agree, than they were then, and step healthier, they've stepped better into different problems, not the same problems, but it's different problems Exactly.
Dave Leake:And like I just I think we have to be so clear, and I think we are being clear, all for women's rights, all for progress in all those senses. We don't want to go backwards in any of those ways, but progress, to me is men becoming more like biblical men, and all those values, and women
Jeff Leake:being biblical women, and us being aligned there. And you can't go to that place. You can't leave the gender war and go into biblical alignment without being able to read passages of Scripture that address these issues without flinching every time you come across something that doesn't feel right to you, you have to. You have to read the Bible and let the Bible instruct you for what it says, without all of the you know, wrong interpretations creeping back in, like having good context for how these verses were misapplied in the past is good information for applying them properly now, yeah, but we can't just simply say, well, we're not going to read that verse anymore, because that verse can't apply. Because that
Dave Leake:was used to I was demeaning women, exactly, yeah, and the verse wasn't meant to be demeaning to women. I think the verse is challenging to men, like treat your wives well,
Jeff Leake:right, right? But if you go to the verse earlier in the passage, which is verses one and two, it says wives be submissive as you live with your husbands in the same way as Jesus died for us. And that verse right there, is also radio radioactive to our
Dave Leake:culture and if, but here's, here's something I'd say if, the if what Scripture says bothers us. Well, you don't need to figure out why scripture is really saying what we are now, because we're at the best era ever. We need to
Jeff Leake:reinterpret Scripture as how we already think about things. Yeah, we
Dave Leake:should be saying, Are we calibrated? Are we calibrated in terms of men and women and marriages? This is good. Okay, so I think, I think we landed a few more. I didn't have women, I didn't get Can I just quickly hit with verses absolutely, I
Jeff Leake:think so. I will just say I think we have landed at this point in the conversation, I know we're gonna talk more at a good place. I think this then becomes a good foundation for us to have two additional conversations about this in future podcasts. One is the role of women in ministry and in the role of women in the home. We've kind of hit a little bit of that today, but we could expand on that. And then the second one is sex in the context of marriage and how women look at it, how men look at it. So those are three podcasts. That was the one we tried to do last Yep, and we did. We did a fail. We're going to kind of come back to that, because that's a conversation that we need to have still. Yeah,
Dave Leake:we might just detach some videos that we were attaching, they might be controversial. Now, yeah, because a couple quick things so Titus two, six says similar, similarly, encouraged the young men to be self controlled and everything. Set them as an example by doing what is good. And then he goes on to talk more about this, like integrity, seriousness, soundness of speech, this kind of stuff for men. So, you know, we talked about men called to leadership and courage, to treating women with honor and understanding, to provide for their households, model self control and holy living for women. This is again, and we just read first. Peter three, right? Yeah, we did earlier. Okay, so first Peter three just is, like an absolute kick to the face in terms of, like, I'm reading this, like,
Unknown:oh, it's, it's the one of the more radioactive passages in the New
Dave Leake:Testament. Okay, so let me just read the few verses of this. It's a bunch of this. All right, here we go. Ready? You're just buckle in First Peter, three, one wives in the same way submit, by the way, right, right before this, Jesus, it was talking about Jesus like
Jeff Leake:to this. You were called because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in the steps.
Dave Leake:There you go. Come on. You got it all memorized. I needed someday. Okay, three, one wives in the same way, submit your husbands or submit yourselves to your husband, so that if any of them do not believe the word that they may be won over without words, they see the behavior or the behavior of their wives when they see the purity and reverence of your lives, meaning, even if your husband is not a Christian, still be a really great wife. So that you convince him that Jesus is doing something your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and wearing jewelry or
Unknown:fine clothes. Okay. Keep going.
Dave Leake:Okay. You may slow down. Or do you want to read that again? Keep reading. Okay. But rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. This is the way the holy women of the past, but their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her Lord, your daughters, if you do what is right and do not give way to fear, okay?
Jeff Leake:And then it says husbands in the same way you consider Exactly. So it shifts from
Dave Leake:and then those, finally, all of you be like minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and
Jeff Leake:humble. So those six verses, chapter three, verses one through six of First Peter this, those are probably some of the more primarily disturbing verses. If you're a woman, and we don't have time to dive on those six right now. There's just no way we can cover that. And the idea of, I'm certainly not going home and reading that to melody and saying from now on, call me your master. Yeah, geez, geez, yeah, yeah. So, but, but, but here's what I have to I think we have to do. And this is my recommendation for anything in the scripture that we don't know what to do with when it seems so at odd with our culture and even triggering to us, I think we have to go back, and you have to take your time and you prayerfully research, study and grapple with the Scripture so that you can apply it in the proper context. And if it bothers you, oftentimes, there is either something in the tension of the verse that will come to understand that's a fuller revelation that actually makes us understand things better, or God will convict us of something that we need to deal with, that is our resistance internally to what we're reading, and that he wants to correct us through The scripture and bring us into alignment. Now this verse, no doubt, is troubling, yeah, and so, so you read it and you got but you can't. Can't erase it. Can't take your eraser and say, scratch out verse six of the you can't. And if we're going to have biblical alignment as our goal, not progressive theology, then we have to grapple with verses that we don't like.
Dave Leake:So okay, so let me respond to what you're saying. One thing that's really easy to do, that's not a good way to do things, is to read theology and then go find voices that are going to say what you already want them to say. Yeah, I was, I was just preaching about this in Second Timothy four, where it says, you know, they're going to multiply teachers that teach what their itching ears want to hear, essentially. So it's never a good thing like that bothers me. Let me find the holy context. Oh, good. I found somebody like that agrees with me. Yeah. Like that was never right. Like what? I think we should sit with this. And first and foremost, the best thing to do is to read the Bible and then pause and pray and allow God to speak to us, and then you didn't mention this. That mentioned this as an option sometimes, and I'm not the first Peter three one, you could easily take this to mean things it's not saying. But I think sometimes if stuff messes with what culture is saying, or what we've come to believe about men and women. It can be like, That's chauvinist. That's wrong, that's sexist. But I really think if we slow down like the word of God is extremely like, it treats with extreme value and dignity men and women, in fact, especially in the context of the cultures they were written in, like, women are treated far better in the Bible than any other comparative.
Jeff Leake:Yes, and let's just this is part of the history that we miss when we only pull out the short snippets of how men abused women in certain scenarios in a Western Christian informed country, what we don't understand is what Christianity did to revolutionize the world to get us to this point right now, the issues are way different, because men were women were treated as property in ancient cultures when Christianity showed up in the scene and still are around the world today, right? So Christianity has done more to shape a worldview to create a place for women's advancement, if it wasn't for the worldview that Christianity shaped, we wouldn't have seen the massive leaps forward so that now we're almost dealing with nuances to the progress, because Christianity has changed the world to such degree. And again, if you just go back to ancient Rome when Christianity was coming on the scene, Christianity did more to elevate women than any other movement in human history, right? That doesn't mean that women are perfectly treated in Christian countries or in in the church in history. Just means that you can't ignore the radical progress that's been made because of the gospel since, yeah, totally, since Jesus came on the scene so
Dave Leake:quickly. Some things that we can take from that passage that are very easy. Paul talks about cultivating inner beauty and a gentle spirit. So don't let the primary statements be what you wear or how you look, which could be applied to men too. It could. But let's just say, in this specific context, he's
Jeff Leake:a but, I mean, I'm challenged by that.
Dave Leake:No, no doubt. No doubt. Okay, yeah. I Everything, everything that applies to men. As far as, like, you know,
Unknown:we did this whole conversation to say, stay in the lanes, and I broke the rule.
Dave Leake:Nothing like every biblical principle in general, like we're reading, as far as how we should behave, that's gonna treat more like Christ, it should apply to both genders. But there are emphasizes that he has Okay, both good. I'm just talking about the emphasis that we see from a difficult pass that you saw. But not all that
Jeff Leake:doesn't mean that. So my dad used to have so I grew up in a family, I don't know where, over time, I grew up in a family it was very religiously strict, and his family took that verse out of context and saw it to mean that women should never wear makeup or cut their hair or wear anything that more than just a basic dress, I see, and my dad used to call it the ugly of holiness.
Unknown:You shouldn't say that on this podcast either, rather than the beauty holiness. What do you mean? Why was Allison? Are you calling people ugly if they don't wear make? No, no, well, no, I You, my dad was the kindest, most gentle man in history, but there he was basically saying some, some, some things could have been done for his own sisters. He could say right there at the end, Matt, can you bleep that out. We just hopefully people didn't listen to the whole episode. Okay, okay.
Dave Leake:Anyway, just, just very quickly, because I hit the men. One, there's a number of things. Titus two talks about how women should teach and guide younger women. Second, Timothy first, Timothy two talks about, it's another modesty verse, but more in terms of, don't make the main thing about yourself how you dress. But he says, with good deeds, appropriate for men are professed to worship God, so like clothe yourself with good works, make that your primary part of your reputation. And then in Romans 16, he talks about Phoebe commends women to be faithful laborers in the Gospel. All this to say, All this to say it's a messy conversation, like even just us having this whole conversation feels awkward and messy. And I think several times both of us, and probably Matt. I see Matt constantly writing notes down over there, so he's probably like, wrong on this. I think there's always the chance of like, Oh, we're gonna say things insensitively, or that it's going to sound it's going to age badly, but we're it's you have to grapple with the mess of what the Word says, contacts, contact with, what our cultural context is, and some of the things they're saying are bound to time and culture. And we can get into that like they're one that I believe very much is firmly bound to culture and time and context. Is where Paul talks about the head coverings for men and women and being the glory of God, not, you know, I'm talking about, yeah, the length of hair. Yeah, the length of hair. That stuff, I think was bound to a culture into a time. But some of this stuff is timeless, and some of this stuff is okay for us to grapple with. And ultimately, I believe that as we align with what the Word of God says we're going to see real progress for everybody, not again, not to say we fully arrived. I think there's still ways to go with protecting women and even all this stuff. Yeah, you know, but, but I think we we see the best glory and dignity when husbands and men treat women the way that they're commanded to in the Bible and act like men. And when women treat men the way that they're commanded to in the Bible, and they act like biblical women, because it's a reflection of the image of Jesus, and it brings unity, and it flips what the culture does. And instead of there being this war, I think we can really be a picture and a portrait of unity between genders, you know, in marriages and in singleness. And I think that's, that's my hope and prayer like that. We don't have to have a zero sum game of where women have to be put down for men to be put up, or men have to be put down for women to be put up like men shouldn't be more like. A lot of things in
Jeff Leake:our culture are that they make you be against someone, to be for someone, and we are a for everybody mindset. So yeah, I'm sure we weren't perfect with this podcast. Forgive us if we stepped on you or stepped in something that you didn't agree with or triggered you. That's not our intention. What we are trying to do is have these very uncomfortable conversations, and the podcast gives us a longer form, not a Sunday sermon, to talk about this real stuff. And even, can I say it make mistakes in the way we say certain things, because we're all trying to pursue what the scripture actually teaches in a certain area. And so with humility, we present this to you as the beginnings of probably a three part conversation that we'll come back to at a later time. And so hopefully, if we miss something, we can address it later. If you feel that we said something offensive, you want further clarification. You want to point something out we missed, you're always welcome to leave a comment. Mm. Especially on the YouTube channel. We definitely take those things seriously, and you could inform some of the information for our next podcast. We also have people emailing us regularly giving us input, so something, something didn't sit right with you and you want to be a part of this conversation, we'd
Dave Leake:love to hear from you. Great, perfect. All right, well, I think you kind of address everybody, but we'll just give one more big thank you. Thank you for patience too as we talk through the messiness of topics like this. And we'll get into more, because we need to do a series on this. But for now, thanks for listening. We'll see you guys again next time.