Allison Park Leadership Podcast

How Do I Become a Mature Christian? The Markers to Look For

• Jeff and Dave Leake • Season 6 • Episode 11

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Ever wonder what it really means to grow in your faith?

In this honest and grace-filled conversation, Pastors Dave and Jeff sit down to unpack what spiritual maturity looks like—and what might be holding you back. This isn’t a lecture—it’s a real talk about the journey from surface-level faith to a deeper, more authentic walk with Jesus.

We explore questions like:

  • Why do I still feel stuck in my faith?
  • What does maturity actually look like?
  • How can I grow without falling into religious performance?

Whether you’re new to faith or have been following Jesus for years, this discussion is here to encourage you, challenge you, and help you take your next step forward.

🔗 Watch now and join the conversation on becoming the disciple God is calling you to be.

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Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
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@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Dave Leake:

What makes a mature Christian? A lot of us are on a journey to follow Jesus, which means a whole bunch of things. And so we want to talk today about what's optional, and what really does a mature Christian look like? You know, obviously, none of us are the Son of God, and we're not going to be just like Jesus, but the goal of the Bible, you know, of Christians, is actually to become more and more like Jesus. So what does it look like? Where does it stop? What is basic for everybody, what's sort of above and beyond, and how do we pursue a mature relationship with God without becoming religious or Pharisaical? If you wanna hear more about this, tune in Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have a culture creating conversation. Creating conversations. My name is Dave

Jeff Leake:

and my name is Jeff, and we're glad you've joined us today. So again, father and son, we're also, at least for a few more months on staff together at Allison Park Church, David at the Northside campus and I'm the Lead Pastor. A couple episodes ago, we introduced the idea that Dave's going to Jacksonville to plant the church in 2026 so we're pumped about that. And some of you have asked, Will we continue to do the podcast? So what's the answer that we

Dave Leake:

will continue to do it some way, somehow we haven't figured out how yet, probably just streaming somehow.

Jeff Leake:

Probably streaming. Maybe sometimes we'll fly you up and we'll have some in studio things. Actually, probably the streaming may give us some options to interview some people who aren't in town that we haven't been doing since. But we're

Dave Leake:

thinking about experimenting by building an AI personality of me that can be on the screen. By the way,

Jeff Leake:

I would just say, since our AI episode a couple of weeks ago, man, I have been using chat GBT

Dave Leake:

every day. Yeah, were you the one that made that baby video of us?

Jeff Leake:

No, that was producer, Matt, by the way, that may have been the most liked video I have ever posted on my

Dave Leake:

social I have people from all over the world that are contacting me about that video that are still like, yeah, so maybe, maybe we'll have baby Dave is the personality teach you to think how I think. All right. Anyway, today, we want to, as we always do, give a quick shout out and thanks everybody who's a regular listener, nobody today to give a specific shout out who left a five star review, but if you want that, you can leave us a five star review on Apple podcast, we'll see your name, hopefully at some point, other podcast platforms let us see a username, because we give a lot more shout outs. But any way that you can help spread

Jeff Leake:

the word, be super helpful. So even helpful. So even if you just like the video you're watching, that helps.

Dave Leake:

So that helps, that helps. All right, let's get into it. Yeah. So you were, we were having a discussion today about what to do the podcast on, and one of the things that I think has been an interesting topic for me recently, we've had long conversations about a fuller discussion of this. But what are the marks of a mature Christian, specifically, when it comes to practices, experiences, things like that. Craig Groeschel, I think, has a measurement he calls the fdfd. I think it's fully devoted. Follow or wait, fully devoted follower of Christ, fdfc, maybe is what it is, okay? And it's a, it's a measurement of like, how do we know when somebody is arriving at a level of maturity? What are the life practices? There's probably character qualities that are obviously

Jeff Leake:

there as well. Willow Creek and Bill apples years ago did that too. It was a way for them to measure the qualitative aspects of whether or not their church is being effective, right? So it was sort of like, you know, how do you know your church is doing well? Well, you measure how many people are coming every weekend, how many people are in small groups, how many people are are giving or whatever. And this was more like an individual profile, right? Is that what Craig Groeschel is like, yeah, yeah. How many people in their life have done these four things? Are doing these four things? Is that correct?

Dave Leake:

Yeah, and I'll get more information in just a second on exactly what that entails. But I think that the conversation that I want to have today is about an individual. Well, I guess if you're a pastor, maybe you're thinking of a leadership angle. But if you're a follower of

Jeff Leake:

Jesus, say, How am I doing? Yeah, yeah. And maybe let it be shooting for

Dave Leake:

Yeah. Like, how do I continue to take steps that are progressing forward? Also, I think one of the things that I'm I would have been curious about, especially when I was younger, is like, what things are everybody should be doing this, and what things are like. This is a cherry on top. This is advanced. This is great, but maybe this is not like the expectation in general. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so, like I read about William Seymour, and before the Azusa Street Revival came, he was praying five hours a day for a year and a half, and he felt like he was praying to God, like, why isn't something happening? God said, pray more. So he ended up praying seven hours a day for another couple of years until that came through. That's probably not every Christian should be praying seven hours a day, or else, it's not a mark of mature believer, right? That's

Jeff Leake:

like, although I will just say so a little bit more about. Background. This is an amazing, historic leader that Dave just mentioned. So the the point person for the Azusa Street revivals, which happened in the early 1900s out in Los Angeles, California. He led a three year revival which basically launched Pentecostal charismatic Christianity, which is now almost a billion people around the world, right? So obviously, guy had a special assignment for him, but seven hours a day. So what you said for how long? Well, I think it was several years. Okay, so I know going through Bible college, at a Pentecostal charismatic Bible college that appreciated the history of the Zuzu street revivals. Oftentimes someone will share a story just like that one, and then the challenge would be, okay, now step up. Now you need to have that kind of prayer life and and for me as a as a young man, first born, achievement oriented human being, I always felt like I could never measure up, like I would never be committed enough. I would never be faith filled enough. I would never be hungry enough. Like, no matter what I would do, I would always fall short of the William Seymour, not just him, but whatever standard we're going to use that target right of what Christians should be. And so I do think if we don't have reasonable, God based, Grace oriented, yet challenging standards for what we're looking for, yeah, either can lead to laziness and apathy, or it can lead to what would you call that, performance neurosis? Yeah, it's your religion, security. It's sort

Dave Leake:

of like performance based religion, yeah, right, where you're trying to earn a certain level of spiritual rank, I guess, in a way, yeah, and so, so I think that's kind of where the discussion should go. Now, obviously, praying for seven hours a day is wonderful, but I guess here's the other side of it too. Like when you said it studied the life of Jesus, I think people's natural reactions would be like, well, I know we're supposed to be like him, but, I mean, come on, he is the Son of God like you can't expect all this of me, but there's a level of we should be like that in a lot of ways, maybe, and maybe in most ways, even not that we're gonna die on a cross in a literal way. So let's just, let's just open this up, like, Okay, I'm I guess we can just start with, with a broad, sweeping what are the marks of someone who is mature, or maturing at a high level in their walk with Jesus? I guess you never, maybe receive full completeness till we get to heaven. But what are the marks, or do we wanna start?

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, so the first thing that comes into my mind is that I'm glad in some so I'm inspired by William Seymour story. I love the idea you can see what he put in and what was the result of his life. But I'm in some ways glad that the William Seymour story isn't in the New Testament, right? Because I think we have to start with the idea that whatever we're shooting for should be based in the New Testament. It shouldn't be based on some story. You heard about this legend who did certain things because we weren't there at William Seymour's life. We don't know if he did seven hours every day, no matter what day in and day out. Were there some days that he did seven hours. So it's hard to go off of hearsay stories that are wonderful inspirations, but I would much rather go back to Jesus's life and ministry the disciples life and ministry in the book of Acts, because then you have solid biblical basis for what you're doing, and everything we do, and everything we believe and everything we practice should come out of the scriptures. So let's, let's set William Seymour seven hours a day practice aside for a minute, and let's go into New Testament. Now, let's ask the question. So how did you ask it? Dave, what's the

Dave Leake:

mark? The marks? Yeah,

Jeff Leake:

yeah. So what are the marks of a mature Christian? So what did Jesus tell us to do? He said, love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. So I think that those things would have to be involved, right? Because they're, they're the great commandment. And then, you know, the overarching command of Jesus was love one another, right? So a new command I give you that you would love one another. So I think you could be reading your Bible, and you could be praying and you could be giving a lot of money. Isn't this actually what First Corinthians says, but if you don't have love, right? That none of that matters. So somehow love, this has to be involved with that, right? So that's one thing, I guess. I guess you could peel that off a bit. You would say, Love God, Love your neighbor, love one another, those three things, so a mature Christian would be developing an intimate, ongoing, deepening love relationship with. Their Creator, right? So time and effort and energy is being put into loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, that that's not just a vibe, vibey thing, like, yeah, I love God with everything. It's, it's, I mean, if I say I love my wife, but I don't ever spend time with her, then probably I'm missing something. So do you think that's hitting some target

Dave Leake:

there? Yeah, let's, so let's, let's keep going into detail and I'll frame it, because I think you'll probably feel pressure to frame it if I don't do this part. Well, I don't think what we are doing on this podcast is looking for people to feel judged based on or pressure practice or practice pressured based on practices you do or don't have in your life. But at the same time, I think that this is helpful to talk about marks of maturity. So like, okay, for example, we're now where you're going with this is time with God, right? I think talking

Jeff Leake:

about intimacy with God, but yes, which involves, well,

Dave Leake:

you said time with your wife, right? Yeah, intimacy with God, which involves time, when we get into specifics of that, if somebody's like, Well, I only spend five hours a day instead of like, obviously, it's an exaggeration, but I think that there could be a tendency to feel judged, however, this is, this is what I want to propose. Like it would be good for us to talk about healthy practices like i So I'll start by saying this probably a mature Christian has time with God every day. It doesn't mean that we would never miss an appointment with God, but the mark of a mature Christian would be that there's some time set aside for a person to be with God, and a intentional way beyond just I live with God, I walk with God in my daily life, right? Would you agree with that?

Jeff Leake:

And we see that pattern in Jesus's life. So we would say Jesus got as a pattern throughout the New Testament. He got up early before it was before it was day break, and he spent time with his father, so yeah, think there's time that's probably extended time where the relationship is being developed, and for us, that means diving into his word, which is how he primarily talks to us, and spending time in prayer, which is how we talk to him. I remember Dave as a young person, and I've probably told this in various formats, but after I gave my life to Christ, so pre 15 years old, I attended church and I went to youth events, but I didn't spend time every day with God. I was never I don't think I ever did, I don't think I ever got up and read my Bible and prayed. But the moment I gave my life to Jesus Christ, afterward, I talked to my youth pastor. My youth pastor said, now you need to spend time praying every day. I was like, Okay, great. I didn't know what that meant, though. So I remember sitting down to pray, and it took me, like, three minutes. If you'd have told me the William Seymour story, at that particular point, he prayed seven hours a day, I would I would have been like, What the heck is he doing? Like, because I ran out of stuff to ask God for. I didn't know what that was. Spend time with God. Like, what does that even mean? Like, I had a list of prayer things written up. And how many things can you ask for, right? So I had to develop a skill set of what it was to to just be with him, which is involving, you know, involves worship and involves journaling. It involves meditation. Give

Dave Leake:

us a quick like, a sampler of a standard, standardized format for somebody who wants to up their prayer life, standardized. Like, here's how you can follow a pattern.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, okay. I love prayer patterns. By the way, I've written a book called praying with confidence, which gives you 31 plus prayer patterns that you can use so that when you get into your prayer time, you know what to do. But the simplest one is basically the AX format, A, C, T, S. You familiar with

Dave Leake:

that? You abbreviated it as packed when we were a kid. I did remember that?

Jeff Leake:

P, A, C, T, yeah, okay. Give me the P, A, C, I don't remember what that was.

Dave Leake:

Praise, ask, confess, Thanksgiving.

Jeff Leake:

Okay, there you go. That's good. So there you go. So you

Dave Leake:

avoid supplication, yeah, yeah. So the A,

Jeff Leake:

C, T, S is adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication. Supplication is this big religious word, which means, basically, to ask God for your needs to be met. Adoration is worship, yeah, so I gave you packed good. That's a good one. I forgot about

Unknown:

that. Yeah, so out of

Dave Leake:

the 11 year old,

Jeff Leake:

basically, my youth pastor told me, spend five minutes on each and force yourself to stay there for five minutes. So five minutes in praise.

Dave Leake:

Well, praise is easy. Well, it it is worship song. Well,

Jeff Leake:

it wasn't in the time I was 15, yeah, I had to get a vinyl record. Pull out a hymn book somewhere. But now it is right, you just play, you know, turn in on the song firm foundation, sing the lyrics in a private place. You're there, right? Can you spend that five minutes confession? This is, this is sort of based on the Lord's Prayer. Okay? Second one. So. Praise, ask. Okay, ask is easy too, right? So what do you need that you're asking God for? Make a list. What's great to do is to actually track the answers. So if you have a notebook somewhere, maybe a page in your Bible, you write down your prayer list when it's met. You have a second column that shows that.

Dave Leake:

And I'd say in the Ask category, you should have it big and bold me, and then bullet points, and then others and bullet points, because that helps to be like, how many do I have in these categories? You mean? Because I think early on, it's like, if you, if you don't have it listed like that, it's like me is like 90% and then you're like my kids is like, if you, you know what

Jeff Leake:

I'm saying, Sure so. And in the praying with confidence book, I go beyond specific things we're asking for to scriptures that we're declaring, which is actually a little more mature version of that. So praise. Ask confess. Confess is twofold. It's Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. So it's in doing an inventory inside your life to find out what it is that is not right. You know where you might be giving into some kind of sin in your life, in your thoughts or your choices or your actions, confessing it before God, asking him to cleanse your life through His shed blood on the cross. And then second is forgiving those who've offended you. And this is where you look inside to see, am I carrying any hurt or offense? And where you then go before God to say, I choose now to forgive this. I release it to you, and God begins to set you free inside. And then the last one is Thanksgiving, which also could be a song, could be a song about Thanksgiving, or it could just be creating a list my my personal challenge when I get into the Thanksgiving point of prayer, as I challenge myself to come up with 30. Well, that's good, 30 things I'm thankful for. 10 I can come up with quick 15. I'm starting to have to think 30 makes me really do some investigation of what am I overlooking in my life. And yeah, you spend five minutes on each of those, and then you spend 10 minutes reading the Bible, you have a 30 minute prayer time that's very structured and packaged well, and it makes you feel like, when you're done, you feel like, yeah, like, I'm I'm now, sometimes you're you don't have to spend 30 you can get through it quicker. And other times you get into it, you might be there for two hours

Dave Leake:

well, you know. So honestly, if you do five minutes in each of those, that's 20. And then if you pick up a one year Bible or a one year Bible reading plan, that's another that's easily 10. Yeah.

Jeff Leake:

But sometimes what happened for me Davis, I would get into confession, and there was a lot more there to unpack, right than I could do in five minutes. Or I would get into asking, and I was heavy about something, and it was there was a lot more. Or sometimes I would sing one in in my praise section, and then I just hit a zone where I felt the presence of God, and I just wanted to continue. So I would do two or three more songs. And before long, your prayer time is extending, because you're beginning to go from Okay, so Cal, Pastor, Cal, who's a hero at Allison. We did this like, years ago. Yeah, yeah. So he says, you start at first. He said, prayer was a duty, right? And I just did it because I knew I had to. Then it became a discipline, right? Where I was, I was doing it on a regular basis, and it was habitual. Then it became a delight in my life. I think I'm missing a D, there's a third one, yeah, anyway, but, but that's where you end up, is where all of a sudden your discipline goes from, you know, I have to to get to like I so enjoy being with God in these prayer moments. And remember, you're talking to a person, so like when you start to engage with him, what the Bible says, if you draw near to Him, He'll draw near to you. So there is a there is a revolutionary, transformative component to having this daily time with God. Yeah, so love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, has to do with developing an intimacy with God through the discipline of prayer and Bible reading.

Dave Leake:

Can I add a couple of things, since we're on remarks of a mature Christian? So a couple of clarifications. One, I think the difference, in case it's a little confusing, between praise and thanksgiving, Praise is where you're thanking God for who he is, and Thanksgiving, in terms of the prayer format, tends to be for what he's done. Yeah, you know, like, Thank you God for my family. Thank you for providing for us.

Jeff Leake:

Thank you that I can hear and I can see phrases for that cup,

Dave Leake:

because you're good, you're worthy of praise. And yeah, it's, it's all those kinds of things. Second thing, I would say is a clarifying thing when they get really Pentecostal here, but I actually think a a mark of mature prayer life is also having dedicated time each day to praying in the Spirit. Yeah. So I actually, for me, I notice a really, really big difference in my prayer time. Whenever I have just dedicated time praying in the Spirit, here's what, here's kind of what it looks like to me. So we're talking about, you know, the gift of. Of praying in tongues, you know, based out of Acts two or Romans, where it says, you know that, that when we don't know what to pray, the spirit prays through us. They're worthless groans. So I

Jeff Leake:

think, I think I have started to say it like this, praying, singing and groaning out of your spirit, or out of the spirit, meaning that you, you don't just do it out of your head,

Dave Leake:

yeah, but I'll push back. Is the idea of praying? It is

Jeff Leake:

it starts there, though, sure, sure. So for a person that's like Beginning the journey, it starts with this feeling of out of my chest. I start to sing to God like not a it's not a head thing anymore. It's the Holy Spirit who lives within me interacting with my spirit as I'm crying out to God, sure, right? But and then what often happens is that the gift of spiritual language, or speaking in tongues, happens where you start to flow in that and the Holy Spirit starts praying through you. But I think it all starts there. Like to understand what that is singing out of your spirit, or keep going, yeah?

Dave Leake:

Well, so okay, this is probably a topic for the

Jeff Leake:

future. By the way, probably a lot of what William Seymour was doing for seven hours. This is probably,

Dave Leake:

this is probably a topic for the future. And I know we've probably talked about this somewhat, but you know, the older I get, I think when I was younger, there was, especially in Bible college time, there was a little bit of an embarrassment for me over the idea of praying in tongues. But like, oh, Pentecostals make this huge deal out of it. And you know, in the ag, one of the 16 fundamental truths is that the bap, that tongues, is the initial physical evidence of baptism, Holy Spirit, meaning the first thing that we see out as an outward sign of the inward transformation of the baptism. Holy Spirit is actually his prayer language.

Jeff Leake:

So big deal. Have we ever done an episode on this?

Dave Leake:

I don't know. Producer, Matt, do you remember us ever doing an episode on this? Speaking in tongues? Let's, let's, let's do one.

Jeff Leake:

At some point, we should do a whole episode just on this. Okay, there's so many questions. I'll just say a little bit with this

Dave Leake:

then, because, as you know, I guess spoiler, we're probably gonna record a second episode today. Maybe I'll do this next but my quick thing on this note that I'll mention, I think the more the older I've gotten, the more I'm like, this is a key for my spiritual life. Like it's not just a sign of baptism in the Holy Spirit. It's not just a Pentecostal foundation. I noticed that I take offense a lot easier when I'm not praying in the Spirit consistently, I notice I have less energy, I have less grace. I It's like, I have less of a barrier. And I feel like whenever I typically, it's like, I'll put on, you know, hour long worship session on YouTube by Jesus image, or just some, you know, some of their plans. I'm an acoustic and I just am singing out loud in English, and then I'll, you know, pray in my spirit. And you know, I'll find this first. But you know, Paul talks about like, if I pray in my mind, my spirits unproductive. If I pray in my spirit, my mind's a productive. Talks about like, sort of combining those sort of two together. So sometimes I'm praying in my in my prayer language, where I my mind doesn't understand it, but in my mind I'm singing the same songs, so I'll sing in English, and I don't know, and to me that that cultivates this intimacy, and it cultivates this like this. It's more than a feeling of fullness. It's just like, I don't know. It's like a it's like the life that I you know, you talked about digging wells, the other like, I don't know, a number of episodes ago, digging wells to be in God's presence. I think the prayer format is huge. I think intercession, praying for other people, is huge. I think worship is huge. But I have to have dedicated time just praying My prayer language, or else I'm not who I should be. So

Jeff Leake:

yeah, we did do an episode at one point on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Dave. But I don't think we dove on the tongues aspect like we probably could in a future episode. So let me just say, if you are interested in more information about what Dave's talking about, and you do a search of our previous episodes, you'll find something on the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Again, I'm not here promo in my books, but these are two passions of mine, prayer and the baptism Holy Spirit. So I have another book that that I published, called gateway to supernatural life, which also gives some insight on that. But for most people, that is very mature prayer, right? Like what we just described, that's a very robust, mature prayer life that that we would say, okay, connecting, making an intimate relationship with God through devoted time. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and

Dave Leake:

strength, I would also say, and we touched on this, but a next one that I would throw that tags off. You know this, whenever Jesus is in the wilderness and he's being tempted, He says, you know, man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that comes to the mouth of God. So I think another mark of a mature Christian is knowing the Word of God. Yeah, being in it or it's in you regular. It's not just hearing sermons or or clips or watching online, but actually being in the Word of God where it's impacting me and causing me to love Jesus more and to love people and to. Yeah.

Jeff Leake:

So one of the I'll take a little rabbit trail here, if it's okay, yeah, one of the things I learned when I went to Israel the last time there with Center for Holy Land studies, and Jeremy Stein, who's our, our, you know, very proficient guide, who has, you know, a lot of theological background, historical background. He described how the disciples of Jesus, a lot of them, and Jesus himself grew up in Galilee. And for most people living in Galilee, who were in the Pharisee sect of things, their children were devoted to becoming potential rabbis, all of them, and they spent half the day on a trade. For most of the disciples, they were fishermen, and on the other half, the day spent it in synagogue memorizing the Torah. Yeah, so Jesus, as a young man, would have memorized most of the Torah and many passages in the Psalms and in the prophetic books. So when he pulls out verses that he's teaching on, you got to remember he wasn't carrying around a pocket Bible, right? Because the only way you could get the Bible was in a synagogue and it was in a scroll. It was because he had committed it to memory. So when Jesus calls his disciples to follow Him, they were coming. A lot of them, James and John, Peter and Andrew Philip, out of a background of having spent most of their teenage years committing the Bible to memory. So that says to me, if you want God to use you, the way you prepare yourself is by committing as much of the scripture to memory as you can, because it's through that your thoughts are reformed. It's through that your mind is cleansed and purified. It's through that that you learn the character and nature of God, the promises of God, and it prepares you to step into whatever God has for you next, it

Dave Leake:

also allows maybe you said this, but I'll say it in a different way than if you already did, but I think it also teaches you to understand how God sounds and to differentiate how God sounds from how I maybe sound

Jeff Leake:

want him to sound or feel at a particular moment, Yeah, or like for

Dave Leake:

me, my biggest thing was I thought that when I would hear God often, he sounded critical and harsh and disappointed in me when I was younger, like, for failing or for sinning, and he's like, almost like, that's, I can't believe you, you know, like, like, grow up kind of a thing. And then you read the Bible and it's like, oh, that doesn't really sound like how God talks though, you know, and I started to realize, like, oh, like, like, the Holy Spirit is, you know, our encourager and strengthen strengthener. If you could say that our comforter, he builds us, and he brings conviction of sin. Like, this is wrong. You got to stop this, but not condemnation. Like, you know, you suck and I'm disappointed in you, and how could you, and you're never gonna get better than this. And, like, those are the kind of things I think when you read the Word of God, you start to hear how the voice of God sounds, which makes a massive difference. Yeah, like, our view of God impacts everything. If we see God wrongly, it's hard to relate to him, but he is a certain way, and he describes himself pretty well, yeah, in the Word of God. So,

Jeff Leake:

okay, so mature Christian, marks of a mature Christian. Where are we?

Dave Leake:

Prayer life, okay, Bible time in the Word. I guess there's two that I think maybe I should have gotten two or three. Well, let's just, yeah, let's just start with these two that are probably right at the beginning. We're going out of order here. But obviously it starts with actual repentance and surrender. Okay, you know, yeah, meaning it's not, I think salvation and following Jesus starts at the point of not just believing in God. It starts at the point of saying, I'm gonna stop sinning. I'm repenting, I'm gonna follow Jesus, and you can have control of my decisions, my definitions of what's right and wrong for me and for the world. It's a surrender moment. I think repentance is the first part, because you're not a mature Christian if you haven't repented and surrendered, right? Well, we agree with that. Yeah, that's one of the basic ABCs I would say, yeah.

Jeff Leake:

So this sounds like a lot already, yeah. How is anyone talking about maturity? Yeah, no, but really, basically, what it is is you start on a journey from the moment you decide to follow Christ, where you're now going to allow him to take your life and turn it inside out. Yeah, you're going to get exposed all the things that don't align with his attitudes or his thoughts or his ways. You're going to surrender those things to him on a daily basis. You're going to press in through prayer, worship, the word into time, in His presence and in that he's going to begin to transform you. It's important to understand it from that point of view, because this is not things you perform for God, agreed, this is actually a relationship you develop with God which brings transformation to your inner life and to your entire life, right? And so it's him doing something in and through you as you open your life to him. It's true because, because you can, you know, Legalism, which we would define as trying to perform something for God by obeying certain rules and religious procedures, never gets you to the place of transformation. Nor do you get intimacy with God. And a lot of times, what gets substituted when we start to talk about maturity is do this, pray and read the Bible and go to church and tithe and repent and surrender. And it starts to feel like this list, ah, like, how will ever get there? So it starts with what you're saying, Dave, repentance and surrender, and then the pursuit of God in a love relationship, yeah, and it's the Holy Spirit at work within you, and it's the word that begins to work within you, that starts to change you, so that you start to more and more resemble the character and nature of Jesus and less and less your old life. And that is the journey. And it's so easy to substitute a legalistic, religious approach from the transformational, Relational Approach, if we're not careful.

Dave Leake:

Well, I think what gets substituted more than either of those is an add on type of Christianity. So even like the idea like, oh, that sounds like a lot, well, I think sometimes when people feel like something sounds like a lot, it's because the expectation is I change my beliefs and I change my schedule where I'm going to church now, so I believe in Jesus, I'm going to church. Isn't that what being Christian is? And,

Jeff Leake:

well, that's not an add on. That's a dumbed down version, right? It's a

Dave Leake:

well, I mean, an add on to your life you're living, you're living your life the way that you

Jeff Leake:

already meaning that I'm doing me, you do you and slap a Jesus sticker on, yeah, yeah. It's

Dave Leake:

like, it's like becoming a Steelers fan, like, Oh, yeah. And I watch the Steelers on Sunday, and I watch

Jeff Leake:

shows, and every once in, yeah,

Dave Leake:

yeah, exactly, okay, try not to get drunk before

Jeff Leake:

we belittle that too much. Though. I think a lot of times for brand new believers. It starts there, yes, like, it's sort of like I just stumbled into this whole new world, and I didn't even know there was such a thing as I don't know God was this good, and I know Jesus died for me this way. And look at these amazing verses in the Bible, and there's a whole Christian culture out there. I actually belong to. Some of this is so cool. I've been listening to this, and it almost feels, in some ways, like a new believer can think that all of that is Christianity, just simply because you haven't, you haven't realized the depth and breadth of what it is to follow Jesus yet. So if you get stuck in the I go to Christmas on Easter and we have the manger scene, and now we read the Bible before we open Christmas presents. Like, okay, there is, there are certain practices that are really entry level, basic to the Christian community, the trappings of it, that we can substitute some of that for real Christianity, which, if you get into the Gospels, I mean, and you really look at the history of the disciples, they ended up laying their lives down, like they centered their entire world around Jesus, and they got persecuted for it, and they died for it and Okay, so somewhere between I'm listening to a new stream on Spotify and I'm dying for Jesus, that that's what we're talking about. That's the

Dave Leake:

spectrum of things. Okay, so again, we're talking about marks of maturity. If somebody is newer to your Christian, is newer to your Christian faith, this does not have to be where you start, because it's not where anybody starts, right, right? But we're talking about marks of maturity, I think even the word so we talk about being a Christian, which means a disciple of Jesus. The word disciple really means apprentice, and you only become an apprentice if you're trying to become a certain thing, yeah, you become an apprentice plumber, if you want to be a plumber, and if you want to be an apprentice of Jesus, you're trying to become like Jesus, right? Like, actually, you are something. It's not that like you believe something or you're a fan of something, it's that you become something. Yeah, that's really what it means, yeah. And, you know, sometimes

Jeff Leake:

you hear a podcast like this, where we're giving you a lot of practices, and it feels, you can almost feel pressured by it, but it's that's where it started for me. Like my youth pastor said, you're a follower of Jesus now you need to pray. Yeah. And he gave me a pattern to pray, and I did that, and I failed at it, and then I got better at it. Another thing he said is, you need to start reading your Bible. And I was like, when do I do that? And he was like, well, bring your Bible with you to school, and then when you have, like, study hall, if you have extra time, just open it up and read it. Yeah. So I remember number one, that was that was mature, because I was outing myself in front of my friends, because I brought a Bible and put it on my desk at school. Okay, that was big. That was actually bold. Then I remember completing my homework and study hall and popping that Bible open. And I remember the very first time ever reading the book of Philippians. I was a sophomore in high school, and I was reading through the book, and I remember feeling like the book was on fire, like every word was like speaking to my heart. And I was like, this is the best thing I've ever read. And so the you should read your Bible, translated into, I can't wait to read my Bible. Yeah, right. It went from a I really this is the disciplines and practices. I think maybe one of the mature signs of maturity is you have left the should do this, and you've entered into. It. Oh, I am so in love with this.

Dave Leake:

Well, that's kind of the, one of the marks of maturity for teenager when it comes to hygiene, right? Like, like, for a teenage boy, no, like, think about it, a teenage boy, like, they're like, You need to brush your teeth. Should shower. I should brush my teeth. And as a, as somebody who's a former youth pastor, when there's a seventh grade boy, it still should, yes, I want to do those things now, don't you? Like, I don't want to not shower. It's disgusting, it feels nasty, and you can barely wake up in the morning if I haven't showered. I think there's a similar level of when you become a mature Christian. It's not a should anymore. It's like, I really need to do this like, so I know we keep talking about like, pressure. Look there to grow in anything you need. You need pressure to grow in anything. You need challenges. If you want to become a mature follower of Jesus, you're probably going to have to pursue God harder and further. And that's what made this. Wait. Hold on, don't, don't dismiss that. That's what dismiss. That's what you always think I'm dismissed. You always you don't like whenever I add too much pressure, but pressure you need something like add to that. Are you ready? Yes, please.

Jeff Leake:

So I am just getting ready to turn 61 years old, and I know I have to take better care of myself from a health perspective, because nothing works the same. So I just sat down with a doctor and a functional medicine, and I paid him a fee for him to assess my blood tests and other things. And he just drilled me like he was, like, I can tell you why you have this problem and this problem and this problem. You're eating this and you're eating that. You're not exercising here, and you need to do this and do that like he he just, I mean, he was unfiltered and up in my face, but since he has done that, I've changed my habit like I'm three days in. So don't celebrate me too much, but, but I know I have to drop weight, and I know I have to change my eating patterns, and part of the reason why I'm reacting so aggressively is because he didn't sugarcoat it like he slapped me upside the head, like he was, like, you're, you want to live like, that was this. So you can't, you're gonna, you're gonna develop these issues in your body if you don't do these things right here. Like, okay, yeah, you caught my attention. So in some ways, I guess you do need truth. Like some like, you cannot live years of your Christian life and not develop a habit of prayer and Bible reading. Yeah, right.

Dave Leake:

That's not even a satisfying, like level. So there's a big difference between, like, religious attitudes and Pharisaical. I know what you said earlier. You said a good word where there's just like, pressure, pressure to have a performance based relationship with God. That's not good. But like the pursuit of Jesus is, and I give you everything, all out my whole life, everything I have is oriented this direction kind of a thing. And it's best when it's like that, and without that, you don't experience the fullness. Okay, so repentance is one of the marks. That's probably the first one

Jeff Leake:

that we have repentance and surrender prayer and time with God, and in His Word, to be able to develop relationships

Dave Leake:

is also okay, let's, I was saying there's a few basics that we maybe skipped over, repentance and salvation immediately followed by water baptism. Okay, water baptism is, is kind of the so we're just talking about Mark.

Jeff Leake:

That's not That's every time you say Marx I think Marxism of a Mark. Mark, yeah. Mark,

Dave Leake:

yeah, exactly

Jeff Leake:

that. So water baptism isn't a sign of maturity. That's the sign. I guess this is one of the things you

Dave Leake:

haven't gotten water baptized. You need to, because that's a part of

Jeff Leake:

what it means. So where I was going to end up, Dave, is the word obedience? Yeah, okay, okay, so that's good. So love for God is part of it, repentance from your past is part of it. Surrender to God. Okay, then, but obedience to what God is asking you to do, that's good. Water baptism is the very first thing you're asked to do. It's the induction ceremony into following Jesus. It's the first so you pray to give your life to Christ, and the very first thing you do is you tell the whole world, I now belong to Jesus. I've died to my past. I'm living to him. I belong to the family of God, which is the church, the multi ethnic, multi generational movement of Jesus Christ around the world I'm in, I'm all in. It's like a coming out ceremony. I'm a follower of Jesus, right? And that's where it all starts, right? There. And actually, the launch process, even for Jesus into his future, started with his water baptism, even though he didn't have to repent of sin, right? He modeled for us that this is the first step of obedience. But then obedience doesn't stop with water baptism. It begins with then you begin to discover all the other things he's asking you to do. Steward your time, well, Steward your money. Well, Steward your gifting. Well, follow the commandments. Okay, now here, here's, here's an important thing. There are certain challenges that are given. To us in the New Testament that are not commandments that earn God's love. They're more challenges to align with the character of Christ. So like when he says, Love your enemies, do good to those who who hurt you. Right? That is not commandments like I do this in order to cross check a box and say, God loves me. Now I do this because this is the challenge of what it is to become like Christ, to live the Christ like life. So obedience to the Christ like challenges of the New Testament, right to flee youthful lusts and to, you know, to live in love and those kinds of things. So obedience would be another, another factor.

Dave Leake:

So, but obedience, water baptism is kind of one of the beginning it is. It's not our first optional thing. Honestly, when people get saved in the New Testament, they get saved and then like that day, pretty much,

Jeff Leake:

yeah. Well, I think the reason why so many people see it as optional is because most people, at least in the Pittsburgh area, who were raised in some type of a traditional environment, got baptized as a baby, and they almost just assume that's not necessary for me, because I already did that and and so it's again, dedicating a child to God, which is what we would see that initial moment, parents making the choice, praying over the child, that that is a wonderful thing, but It doesn't, isn't a substitute for you, the new follower Jesus, making your own choice to do baptism according to what we read in the New Testament, which is to get down into the water and to be dunked under the water as a symbol that your old life is buried in your new life. You're stepping into your new life in Christ. So I always say baptism as an adult is if you were baptized as a child, just a confirmation of what your parents wanted for you, but it's you owning it, right?

Dave Leake:

And the other thing too, I think it doesn't always happen, because when you speak about it with casual language, as if it's just a symbol, because it's more than just a symbol. What would you say, I would say baptism is a spiritual act. So when you, if something is just a symbol,

Jeff Leake:

a spiritual act that symbolizes something,

Dave Leake:

yeah, but when, when you go down under the water and you come back up, there's actually an activation of something that happens in the spiritual realm. I mean, it's talked about with the level of sacredness that's beyond just a picture. Whether or not I wear my wedding ring, I'm still married, but I wear this as a symbol, and it's great. Baptism is more significant than I guess. It's almost like the act of putting on the ring for the first time. In a sense, it's like, it's like a and when you do that, it's a part of the marriage ceremony. I don't think baptism is necessary to get saved, but it is a necessary part of the obedience of following Jesus. It's a non

Jeff Leake:

optional. Okay, let's review. So if you're mature, you've repented of your past, and you're reformatting your mind according to God's word. You've surrendered your life to Jesus, and you've said yes in advance to what he wants for you. You're spending time every day in his presence through the process we just described, you have taken the step of being baptized in the water as your first step to wanting to live a fully obedient life good.

Dave Leake:

Got more. I got plenty more. I could keep going. I don't think I actually have plenty more, but I have a few more that feel like keys. I would say that you are stewarding your possessions for God's purposes, meaning so tithing for one and giving of your your resources time. And you know,

Jeff Leake:

you know that maturity is really hitting you when your obedience has now affected your money. Yes, if, if, if you're if your level of surrender in life has only hit aspects, the non monetary aspects of your life, then it hasn't really affected every, every area

Dave Leake:

it hasn't right or within the most delicate areas. You know what I'm saying

Jeff Leake:

at some point, because Jesus says the biggest competitor for the throne of your life often, is Money. Money. Yeah, right, the love of money. And so the part of full surrender is eventually say, and my money too,

Dave Leake:

right? Yep, that's good. And we could do a fuller episode on the tithe at some

Jeff Leake:

point, I do think, though Dave, love God, love one another, love your enemies, love your neighbor. Okay, so first Corinthians, Paul says, Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. One of the underrated qualities of maturity is that you've become a more loving human being. It's good, right? And so you can't really be a fully devoted follower of Jesus and neglect the church. Okay? So a mature Christian is in engaged in his local church, absolutely, because this is one, been one of the things. Things that's a trend in today's world, is the I'm a Christian, but I don't really like the church, but you can't really do that because we're part of the body of Christ. Jesus is the head. You can't divorce yourself from the rest of the body and be following the head, right? You can't be like, I'm gonna be a hand or a finger or a toe over here, and I'm gonna let the rest of the body do its thing. So you're embedded in the body of Christ. You're forgiving those that are hurting you. You're mature enough to handle offense and to love people who seem to be against you. You're going out of your way to care for your brothers and sisters in Christ, let's love one another. What does it say in First Corinthians 12, you weep with those who weep. You rejoice with those who rejoice. I think you have to be in some kind of so I'm not just talking about this, the format of this, but a small group of people that you are in a transparent, accountable, regular, deepening fellowship with people that they know you and you know them, and you're praying for them. They're praying for you, and you're serving with one another and praying for each other like you. Eventually, you can't really be mature in Christ unless you have relationships not just with God but with other believers. That means being in a local church and being in some kind of small group of people that know you and that you know them, and that you are serving with, and, you know, kind of investing

Dave Leake:

in, I've noticed that I don't say this the right way, but I've noticed that people that tend to be in transition seasons from sort of one era to a next era, often have a hard time With this one, because that feels like a big time commitment.

Jeff Leake:

Well, yeah, so if you add all this together, you're like, what you want my whole life, yeah. And technically, we don't want your whole life. That's not our job to take over your life. But Jesus does like, so, yes, like, there is. That's where it all starts. It all starts with saying, Jesus, you gave your life for me, and in exchange, I'm gonna give my life for you. So to be a mature Christian means that you're in it with your whole life. Yeah, not every moment, ever every day. I mean, we do other stuff. It's not like becoming a follower of Jesus like i i love the Steelers and not I watch them and I mean, I have other past times

Dave Leake:

that baby version, he was holding that Chelsea sign. There we

Jeff Leake:

go. That's right. So fingers like, you know you, you guys are what big into the next phase of Mario Kart through the switch. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with having a life like God wants you to enjoy yourself. But when you come to Jesus and you say, I want to, I want to follow you with everything in my being. You can't dictate to him how it works. You have to be willing to say, I'm all in. I'm going to go all in with this. So technically, I think living a life on your own terms is like a withering flower, living life on God's terms, even though it's way more demanding, is like a blooming garden, right? You can try to do it your way, and you'll find that that way is lacking the fullness and flourishing that comes with being fully engaged in following Christ, yes, by the way, can you take us back to the Craig Groeschel. What are the four Craig Groeschel? We we've added a bunch to to list, and probably he summarizes a little bit better,

Dave Leake:

right? I'm looking for it, and I I'm not finding what he has. I'm fine. So, so you gave us a tease, and then you didn't, yeah, all enough to try to find it better I have. I'm not sure if these are his. So respond to salvation, publicly, follows through with baptism, engages relationally, serves in ministry. Lives generate generously, integrates spiritually, shows deeper commitment that's in both, yeah,

Jeff Leake:

shows that the four, those are six, I'm not sure, say those again. So,

Dave Leake:

salvation, baptism, it says, engages relationally. So like small groups, Bible studies, serves in ministry, lives generously, integrates spiritually, or growing spiritually, I think was how I had heard it another time. So through personal, spiritual disciplines, okay? And then so I have two more that are on my mind. I think we've talked about a lot of these already, but two more that are on my mind as marks of mature believers. This one is going to be very much based on my tradition. But I think mature Christians, I think you can be a very mature person and not a fully mature Christian. Do we agree that that's possible? I realize they contribute, but somebody could be a very mature person, and there's still areas they're going in that's all right, I think baptism in the Holy Spirit is a mark of a mature Christian. I think,

Jeff Leake:

let me broaden that. I think baptism in the Holy Spirit with the expectation of living an adventurous, missional, supernatural

Dave Leake:

life, an evangelistic, yeah, supernatural life, which the baptism.

Jeff Leake:

In the Holy Spirit is not just to make you better at prayer or closer to God. It's to empower you to go out and to preach the gospel, meaning one on one or in other, aggressive missional ways, and to believe for the proof of the resurrection to show up, because we're seeing the signs, same signs that followed the believer, the disciples in the book of Acts. Happening for

Dave Leake:

us, by the way, this is all what the Allison bark Leadership Academy is about, is helping develop mature Christians in all these facets. But we have a particular focus on helping people to step out into the book of Acts lifestyle. We pray for the sick and see them heal.

Jeff Leake:

I feel like we need chat. GBT to give us a an acrostic for this mature Christian come along, should we? Should we type it in? We can work on it. You can

Unknown:

try it if you want to give us anything good. But I mean, if we could consolidate this,

Jeff Leake:

these were five things we mentioned,

Unknown:

it'd be helpful, yeah, it would be

Dave Leake:

helpful. I agree, yeah, I agree. And then I think you just said there's a last one. I had my mind, but I guess it's what you just said, would be like missional living, yeah, so I think it's, it's focus,

Jeff Leake:

because that's the other side of this. So great commandment, love God, love your neighbor. Great Commission, go and preach the gospel to every nation on Earth. Right? Make disciples, right? Of every nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you so. Rick Warren wrote the book Purpose Driven Life, which talks about the five purposes that God has for us. You could, in some ways, start with that grid, the five purposes that God has for us, right? And that that would be one way of beginning the process. Yeah, are you working on the acrostic?

Dave Leake:

Dave, I'm just working on typing out what we already said. I have repentance, surrender, baptism, prayer in the word generosity,

Jeff Leake:

baptism in the Holy Spirit. Yeah, missional, living.

Dave Leake:

And I would say this, I whether or not this is a mark of mature Christian. I think every Christian that has the ability should go on a foreign missions trip. I think, I think if somebody's been a Christian for a long time, you've never been out of the country go on a missions trip. It's life

Jeff Leake:

changing. It's probably not the sign of maturity. No, I agree. It's maybe the activation of it in your

Dave Leake:

life? No, there's but there. So, yes, there is need. Yes, we can reach people here in our own community, in our own country. But the great commission talks about, you know, in Acts, what is it one, five, or he says, or is that eight? Or he says, You'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem Judea Samaria to the end of the earth. It's like an expanding context, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth. We're all called for that, and I think we should all have a hand at some point. If we're able to go somewhere and to share the gospel, that's a huge thing. It changed my life radically, you know, and I realize it's a big step. It's a financial commitment, it's a time commitment. Sometimes people have fear Flying Or Going somewhere else across the world, but it's life changing. So

Jeff Leake:

you know, the one thing that's in my head right now, Dave is that I don't want so the best summary versions of this challenge to live for Jesus is found in the words of Jesus, right? He reduced everything down to love rather. That's like his biggest challenge, love, God, love, love people. Love the lost, whatever it happens to be. But I think there is another thing that's in my head, which is that I think for any of these things to happen, there's this word that it's in my mind right now. It's the word initiative. Like, no one's going to do this for you. You actually have to do this. Like you could have been listening to this episode and you're thinking to yourself, well, that's a whole lot. Where do I even begin? It doesn't really matter where you begin. It just matters that you begin and you have to take no pastor is going to do this for you. No parents going to do this for you. No mentor is going to do this for you. At some point, you have to take the initiative to say, I am going to change this about myself, and I'm going to begin to follow Jesus by taking whatever Step. Go on a missions trip, go to the school, begin a Bible reading plan, start to have my packed prayer, prayer time. Join a small group. What's good? That's you got to start somewhere. Yeah, don't start with everything, but start somewhere and and take the initiative to move the needle. Do you want get

Dave Leake:

baptized that chat gave me? Yeah, go ahead. About, how about this one rebirth? Okay, this is what, this is what chat GPT has. By the way, my wife would hate that we're doing this right now. She is. She's like, anti robots and,

Jeff Leake:

oh, yeah, so she's not, not good with AI, don't,

Dave Leake:

don't connect the sacred with robots. All right, here's, here's what, uh, here's what. Rebirth is, repentance, empowered by the Spirit, baptism, intimacy with God, which is as parentheses, prayer and Word. Okay, wait, slow down. So rebirth, repentance is R, what's? E, empowered by the Spirit, powered by the Spirit. K, baptism, baptism, water baptism, intimacy with God. That prayer and Bible, that's good, yeah, radical surrender, okay, very good. Tithing and generosity. K, heart for the mission. Not bad. It's not too bad. So, yeah, anyway, I'm not sure that it's great, but you know, hey, it's a good start. We could make it a little bead bracelet, like they used to do talking about, we'll make it a what, six part series. Yeah, make it a six part series. Put it in some kids sashes and stuff like that. Go back to a good old 90s Christian Andy. Anything you want to add to this as we close?

Jeff Leake:

No. I mean, I would just say, Okay, let's play our roles in the world here. Dave, you can do this, right? I'm the guy that wants to say, don't be overwhelmed by this. And then you're going to say, come on. But you need to do it, right? Yeah. I

Dave Leake:

think people are kind of expecting us to go there. They're like, all right, say your line. So yeah, I think in general, the life of following God is a lot, but it's worth it. We talked the last, one of the last episodes about heavenly rewards and how there's a limited time we have here to do what we got to do. And not only does following Jesus give us the best life here and now, but it also is the only meaningful way to live a life. So yes, it requires sacrifice, and there are so many competitive things that aren't bad, like our, you know, programs and school and career aspirations and all this other stuff. And those things aren't bad, but I think for me, what I want to commit to is ordering and prioritizing my life, where the non negotiables start with following Christ and then the rest have to figure out how to fit in and not the opposite.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, I guess what I feel good about there's a couple of things. One, I feel good that when you were 11, I gave you a prayer pattern. And I think that's one of the things that everybody needs in their journey, is they need somebody who's standing beside them to give them the right prompts at the right time. So like my youth pastor after I got saved, gave me the right prompts. Hey, you should read the Bible, you should pray. And maybe you don't have that in your life right now, maybe that's what this podcast is for you. I wish I could be standing by your side in your early stages of faith and be personalizing it to you. For some of you, I am your pastor. Maybe I have said these things to you, but if you don't have anybody in your life who's talking that way to you, but hopefully this podcast is that for you. And if you're a pastor or a leader and you're listening to this, maybe we're reminding you of some things that you've let and grow dormant in your in your spiritual walk, or maybe we're activating some things that you need to speak into the life of other people because you've gotten too programmatic in your approach to discipleship, and you need to help people get back into the rebirth mode of life, but yeah, there's nothing quite like having the gift of somebody in your life to tell you in a loving yet challenging way. It's time to step up. Yeah. And here's how follow me, because I'm doing this. And all of these things that we just described are things that we're personally trying to be like, This is not you do this. We're saying, Yeah, let's all follow Jesus together.

Dave Leake:

I love it. Love it. Well, we also love the fact that you're listening to this again, and we would love if you would help us out by helping to spread the word in a number of ways. If you're watching on YouTube, Like and subscribe and do the bell for notifications. You can share this send to any of your friends, anybody who might benefit from this. If you're listening on the podcast through a podcast app like Spotify, Apple podcast, please give us a five star review if you liked it, and you know you can also subscribe that way. All of that just helps us to spread the word. And so if you're a part of this, Allison Park leadership podcast, family, we would so appreciate your time just to take two minutes to do any of that stuff. So anyway, we'll hope you enjoyed this episode. We'll see you guys again next time you.