Can I Truly Know God's Will & Direction For My Life?

Ever wonder if you can truly know God's will and direction for your life? Are you stuck wondering if the path you're considering is truly God's will or just your own desire? 

In this personal episode, Dave Leake takes you through his own journey of discerning God's calling, revealing the internal struggles and spiritual wrestling that come with making life-altering decisions. From battling self-doubt to overcoming the fear of choosing the "wrong" path, Dave and his father Jeff unpack the messy, real-world process of listening for God's voice.

Join us as we explore the principles of divine guidance, breaking down the myths that God's will must always be the hardest or least desirable option. Whether you're a ministry leader, entrepreneur, or simply someone seeking clarity in your next life chapter, this episode offers practical insights into recognizing God's leading. Discover how to navigate the foggy middle ground between personal ambition and spiritual calling, and learn how to step confidently into the future God has prepared for you.

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Transcript

Dave Leake: 0:00

Discerning God's will for your life can be tricky, especially whenever we're not sure whether it's just something that I want or something that God's leading us into. In fact, me and my family are on a really personal journey. Today, we're gonna unveil some big news about the leek family and talk about the journey that God's led us on, and then maybe principles that have come out of my story about determining how we figure out the difference between what is really God and what's just me and dealing with the pressure of a foggy future. If you're in the middle of determining God's will for your life and there's not a lot of clarity, then this is the perfect episode for you to tune in. Hey everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast where we talk about culture creating conversations. My name is Dave. My

Jeff Leake: 0:44

name is Jeff, and of course, we're father and son both at Allison Park Church, and we're glad you're with us for this podcast. So Dave, give us a update. Do we have any shout outs real quick to give people on on social media?

Dave Leake: 0:57

Absolutely. Yeah. So one thing we do here is we want to give a shout out to anybody that gives us a five star review on a platform that lets us see the name of the reviewer. And this week we want to shout out, Blaze white, what's up? Blaze, yeah, thanks for your view, bro. Blaze, one of our APLA students, awesome guy, going to Africa with me. You know, I guess we're I'm recording this before we go. Yeah, we're gonna go in eight days. All right,

Jeff Leake: 1:18

so tell us about that. Where are you going, and what are we doing with the students? That's kind of an interesting lead in, yeah,

Dave Leake: 1:24

well, we're going to Merrill, Kenya, okay, which is a rural part just south of Sudan, I guess, not so far off the border. I think, I think it's because I think they were going up through there to get to south, standing for Anyway, point being, we're going there with mission. SOS, that's evangelist Johannes. Is organization that he leads. We're going to third with team, probably about 150 we're going to preach the gospel on the streets,

Jeff Leake: 1:49

not all 150 or from Allison park, but correct, collectively, we're probably bringing how many 50 between? Well, between Chi Alpha and Allison Park Church. Okay, so explain those two organizations. Chi Alpha is what

Dave Leake: 2:02

it is, a college campus ministry focused on evangelism and discipling those who get saved from the University

Jeff Leake: 2:08

of Pittsburgh, specifically University of Pittsburgh here and then in Alice Park Leadership Academy is, this is the graduating class of 2025 and sort of like the grand finale of our school year is to go on some kind of missions practice, right? Yeah, yeah, it's going

Dave Leake: 2:22

to be great. So we're headed there, and the very beginning of May, May 2,

Jeff Leake: 2:26

never been to Kenya, but I know the SOS base is there in kilgores, and I know the Kenyan people are incredible leaders and a big foundation of what's going on there with the SOS Evangelistic Ministries. Yeah, it's so great to see with SOS how Kenyans and Tanzanians and Burundians serve alongside of Americans and Swedes and and and so forth to make these you know, leaders of the missions organization based there at kilgores and then reaching capital cities all over Africa. It's beautiful, so we'll be praying for you that everything goes well there. And again, we're father and son. I'm the lead pastor at Allison Park Church. Dave is the campus pastor at the north side. And this podcast will be different than any other podcast we've ever done, and because it's very personal, right? There's going to be some personal stuff we're going to talk about specifically related to Dave's calling and life and ministry. So we're going to announce, this is the big reveal. We're going to announce some things on this podcast. If you're regular listeners and you want to know what's up, then stay tuned, because we're going to talk about those things moving forward. So where should we start this conversation today? Dave,

Unknown: 3:44

well, I can just, I'll just reveal, okay, we can just hold

Dave Leake: 3:48

it for a minute. I don't think, I don't think that's the, I think that's what I usually want to say, no. So, yeah, big. So the big news this will have been after I've already shared it, you know, with the North Side campus, but me and my wife Sarah feel like God's calling us to plant the church, and so we are moving probably sometime early this fall, to Jacksonville, Florida, wow, to plant a church there. So how

Jeff Leake: 4:15

dare you take my two grandsons for me?

Dave Leake: 4:19

Do you encounter? Yeah, we'll see. We're not done yet too so, but no, so, so you currently, we're campus pastors at the North Side location, right? But that won't be much longer crazy, you know, we're, we're taking the summer to, you know, to kind of wrap some things up. We've been serving here for 12 years now. I guess I have Sarah, and I will have been, you know, married seven in July, but 12 years of ministry here, and, you know, we feel like God's moving us on. And I think that that's the that's the train of thought, the line of logic we're going to discuss in this podcast. It's been a journey for us. Yes, and we've had a lot of conversations on these podcasts about discerning God's will and taking a step and, you know, walking through the foggy middle and all these different kind of recently, and even recently, yeah, some of that probably too is because Benton and I've been processing, sure, so but today, um, we're gonna, we're gonna spend some time talking about untangling the threads of what might be my desire versus what God's will is, you know, like, how do we how do we really discern, like, is what I'm doing, or is what I want to do, what God wants me to do? Or is there sometimes a difference of divergence, like, how do I know that what I'm if my goal is to follow God's will, to follow the path he's laying out for me, how do I know the difference between mine and God's obviously, if it's sinful, you know, my desire is to murder somebody or something. That's not hard to untangle. But when it's like, a good thing, like, I feel like maybe I want to plant the church, you know, like, how do you

Jeff Leake: 6:04

untangle those threads? And you have done that, yes, at least begun to do that, right? Because you've made this decision. And so and these conversations, a lot of the things we may talk about in this episode are conversations we've had privately that we're going to, you know, now have again for the benefit of everybody in trying to figure this out moving forward. So let me, let me just give a couple of distinguishments here, because somebody listening might not understand. So the difference between a campus and a church plan is just simply, Allison Park has three locations each named Allison Park Church, all throughout the Pittsburgh region, one in Butler, one in Hampton Township and one in the north side. Being a campus pastor means that you are a part of the global organization, which means that a lot of things are centralized for you. We have one set of books. We have one board. There's a lot of things like social media and communications and marketing and finances and administration that happens at the global level, so that, basically, a campus pastor can pay attention to caring for the people, contextualizing ministry to the community and providing ministry with the Allison Park DNA at that particular location, what you're getting ready to do is leave the Allison Park Church campus family, and you're going to move to another city, and you're going to start a brand new congregation that will stand on its own. It'll have its own board, its own finances, its own vision, its own direction, and it's going to be in a brand new space, which is in Jacksonville, Florida. So Dave, you grew up here at Allison Park Church. Of course, you're my oldest son. You were born the same weekend that I became the interim pastor. So your entire life, you have, other than going to Springfield, Missouri for your education, this has been your home church. Yeah. And in the fall, you felt like God spoke to you that you were not supposed to stay here, right? So unpack that for us.

Dave Leake: 8:07

Okay, so, all right, so can I get, can I don't share all the details? Yeah, go. I don't think it's a problem, but it's like a this will paint the full picture. It's probably actually helpful. People will probably like, would probably like to hear this anyway. All right, so you have a plan that's outlined. I do, yeah, of your transition at APC, sure. So there's about six more years left. You started a 10 year transition plan where you're going to step out of the main role and, you know, assume a sort of a different role, but not not as the head of Allison Park Church. At what age is that going to be? 67 Yeah, okay, right. And that will be 40 years

Jeff Leake: 8:46

I will have. So I became the pastor here in 1991 I will go till 2031 it'll be 40 years as the lead pastor in that role. So I'm going to turn 61 here in a few weeks. So that means I have six years left.

Dave Leake: 9:02

So we had a conversation, which, actually, this is kind of funny now that I think about it. It was at a it was at a pit game, which we had another one that's going to come up, but years and years ago. And you said, hey, I want, like, this is probably five years ago at least. So we're at a pit basketball game, yeah, pit basketball game. And you said, I want you to think about maybe taking over for me someday. Not that, not that you were saying I should, but, like, consider this. Pray about this. Yeah, do you know what your future that's God's asking you to do? I don't want to hold you back from doing whatever that is. I know you're thinking about planning a church even at that time. Yes, initially I was thinking that was the I'll get to that in a second. But I'd like you to consider, you know, this process, yeah,

Jeff Leake: 9:44

so what I said to you is not that you'd be the only person I'd be thinking about, right, but you would be in the mix of potentials that could fill that role down the road. So it's not like we were grooming you to be the guy, no, right? We were just basically saying you should. Be in the conversation. Yeah,

Dave Leake: 10:01

yeah. And so that started a series of meetings that we would have a couple times a month where you would be giving thoughts and advice about how you're leading that we could then explore like

Jeff Leake: 10:16

so basically, I started meeting with you and Josh as my two oldest of four sons and a daughter. And we started meeting. We called it the young studs meeting. You called it young study too fair. And my thought was in this journey. So I had seen other pastors who had sons that worked with them to do this, and that was I want to spend time bringing you in on my thought process of leadership, where you could ask any question that you want to ask, about what it is to be the lead pastor. Here my philosophy of ministry on some things and in the process that either prepares one of you potentially to be a possible candidate for that role, or if you're not, and you end up going to do something else, it just prepares you for whatever God's called you to do, right? Because both of you, I think you and Josh will end up as lead pastor somewhere at some point, sure. And the the thing that happened in that actual meeting is, not only did I maybe unpack some things to you guys, but you also spoke into my life. I actually think this is one of the things that has benefited Allison Park Church is that part of the reason why Allison Park has grown younger in age over the last decade, because the attendees of Allison Park Church are getting younger, is because I have allowed you guys to also speak into my life and to how I lead, so that I can lead more with the sensitivity to the next generation. So a lot of those conversations ended up being shaping, some things philosophically sure that really helped this church become more effective, right? Anyway, so

Dave Leake: 11:50

so that that was the type of meeting that we had where this conversation that was sort of life altering for me took place. And it was September of 2024, and I just gotten back from, I guess it was actually August, end of August. But I just gotten back from a mission trip where I was teaching in the SOS bible school in Kenya, kilgores Kenya, got back and you were just saying, you know, so still on this journey, have you guys thought more about what God's asking you to do? Like, what God's calling it to do? Either you feel like there's a sense that God's asking you to consider being the lead pastor. And I was like, not really, like, I would do that if that's what God asks me to do. But it's not necessarily an ambition that I have. I'm just kind of moving forward in the next step. And, you know, I'm fully invested in the north side campus, and it's been such a blessing to be my family, to be there wonderful people. It feels like a very missional campus, and it's growing, and there's a huge young adult contingent that's there people that are hungry to worship and all this. So it was like, I don't really have any sense. And we started talking about just APC things, and it came up that, you know, there are certain, essentially, I'm just telling how the conversation went. There are certain limitations that are on different types of cities. If you're in New York, it's one sort of vibe. And if you're in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is a stable housing market, you know, but it's a smaller city, and so it's in general, it's a little safer. But, you know, every different city God can call you to as sort of a different

Jeff Leake: 13:19

Pittsburgh. It's neighborhood based. It's separated by three rivers. It's doesn't have huge major highway systems running through it. So there's some particular way that you would approach reaching Pittsburgh that would be different than reaching New York City or Columbus, Ohio or Jacksonville, Florida, exactly. And

Dave Leake: 13:35

so we're having this conversation, and you were like, Have either of you guys, you know, Dave or Josh? Either of you guys thought about, you know, stepping out and taking over a church, or planting, and you were saying, like, most churches are looking to hire lead pastors in the age range of about 35 to 45 and I'm, I was, you know, going to be turning 34 and a handful of months. I'm not 34 you're like, you're kind of right in that prime age range. And I was like, I don't think so. Like, I mean, I could, but I just that's also not really an ambition of mine. And so then the conversation took another turn. We started talking about business and

Jeff Leake: 14:10

stuff, and just to be fair, for Josh, both of both of you said, I don't know. Like, when we talked about the future succession plan of Allison Park Church, I think it's still like, I don't know, but you basically said probably not. And Josh was like, I don't know, right? So I think that, and just so that people who are listening to this from Allison park or interested in succession planning, we won't even begin to look at who the future pastor should be for another two years. So two more years of doing what we're doing, and then we'll start to build the profile of what does that future pastor look like. And then we'll start a search process. So this thing that I've been doing with you and Josh has been sort of private and on the side, and not with the design of being a king maker, right, right, right, but more of a design to make. You to be prepared for whatever God's called you to do, knowing that, that you know there are these possibilities that could have been there for either of you.

Dave Leake: 15:07

Well, I mean, you're our dad, so it's like it's not the same thing as a lead pastor, like, mostly I It feels more like it's been as much or more father son box. That's what it's been about, leadership and ministry. Yeah, more than it's been preparing for a role. We kind of rarely talk about role stuff, and more like life principles and lessons that you've learned as lead pastor. And we're like, so why do you do this thing this way? And you're like, Well, this is kind of how I've learned to do it, which has been helpful, which is a lot

Jeff Leake: 15:37

of what we do on the podcast too. So it is, I guess you could say, If you wonder what goes on in those lunches that we've had together, it's been a lot of podcast conversations. Some

Dave Leake: 15:45

podcasts have directly come out of those countries. A lot of them have, yeah, anyway that conversation ends, and I don't, I don't know, it must have been like a Tuesday. It was like the rest of that week, like, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, I I started, I like, it's hard to describe this feeling. If you've ever had this, you'll you'll recognize it. It felt like I was bothered, or almost like I had like, it's about to say anxiety, that sounds like a negative thing, but like, I felt like God was stirring something. And I like, was like, oh, maybe am I supposed to do this. Like, I don't, I don't know that I even want to do this. But like, I so the conversation we had we're talking about this is like, I could probably do this, like, right now. Like, it's not like I have to acquire other skills, like, do what, plan a church, or take over a church, become a lead pastor in some form. Like, I think I could do that right now. I think I, I'm probably ready for that, because, like, you know, at the North Side campus, like, I've been writing and preaching my own messages for a year and a half. And there's some things I haven't had to do that you do as a lead pastor, that I'll have to learn. But like by and large, a lot of it's directly transferable. It's like, I probably could do that. And then it became like, I think maybe I'm supposed to do that. And it was, I mean, it was such a left turn out of nowhere for me that I think there probably was a little bit of a mix of anxiety, like, oh man. Like, that's wild. Like, what if I'm supposed to, you know, what's even gonna be like, I was telling Sarah, like, I, I think maybe we're supposed to start looking and she was like, I don't know. Like, and, you know, Sarah is very pregnant at that point, like, we have, you know, Johnny, our second born is born November 8, so this is sort of couple of months out. She's in her last trimester. She's like, I don't know. I can't even think about that. I'm just feeling stirred. So I talked to mom at some point, she tends to hear from God pretty well. And I was like, you know, did you talk to dad about this? Oh yeah, we already had a conversation. And I was like, I think it was supposed to go like, you know, become a senior pastor who's like, I think you are too. And I was like, Oh, it sort of like settled on me when she said that. Now I was like, Oh, shoot. Like, I think I am. Isn't that

Jeff Leake: 17:53

funny how oftentimes that's the that's the result of the Revelation when it gets real clear what the will of God is, rather than yay, I know it's more like, oh no. That's happened to be many times where God gives you an assignment and it's bigger than you think you're ready for, and it makes you feel both grateful but almost overwhelmed at the same time.

Dave Leake: 18:14

I think even with this one, it wasn't that I thought I wasn't ready for it. It's that I felt like this is going to be a lot, and it's not like a lot that I haven't been anticipating for a year or three years, and it's like I have a plan and I'm building towards this. This is like everything I've been focused on is building the North Side campus, and then it was just like a little grenade that God tossed out there that was going to disrupt everything. So began a process. We begin to a search and building a resume and looking across the country, yeah, and then

Jeff Leake: 18:44

very specifically on what I remember you saying is, we're not supposed to be stay in Pittsburgh. Yes, we're supposed to leave Pittsburgh and go someplace else in the country, and you name several regions that you felt drawn to, yeah. And immediately there was a connection made with an opportunity in the northwest,

Dave Leake: 19:01

Pacific Northwest, yep. And we explored that, and God closed that door. And you know, that was totally fine

Jeff Leake: 19:07

an existing church that was looking for a pastor, right? And you went through, what, three or four interviews, yeah, right. And didn't turn out to be the thing. And

Dave Leake: 19:15

yeah, and that was going to be a huge, huge move for us, but it looked like it

Jeff Leake: 19:19

might be, that it did look like and it took quite a while, so when that finally that door closed, it was sort of like, okay,

Dave Leake: 19:27

yeah, that's how it felt. So, you know, at this point, we're talking like February, and so here's Okay, so here's like, I know this is a long story, yeah, but it's a significant life event for me, and you're kind of hearing the birth of this church that we're going to plant,

Jeff Leake: 19:46

yeah, and I think part of hearing someone else's story, when you're thinking about discerning God's will, you may relate to some of the experiences and principles that we'll talk about here. So I think there's a value we also may, in this process, inspire. Somebody who's maybe had the same leaning, like, maybe you're supposed to step out and plant a church or start a business or do something, and you're hearing this, and you're like, I think this is a confirmation that maybe I'm thinking the right thing too, so, or maybe God's just confirming that you're supposed to stay where you are. But yeah, so Okay, take us further.

Dave Leake: 20:16

It's now February of 2025 and the doors in the Pacific Northwest are shut, and that's okay with us. You know that was going to be like after we have a real peace, but it's sort of back to square one. And now rewind when I first got into ministry. So I graduated from Central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri in May of 2013 and moved back home, was exploring a lot of opportunities. And I thought, like, you know, early that summer, like, Maybe I'm supposed to plant a church. And I had already done, like, a portfolio of a city where I would plant as a project in Bible college. So I was looking at Hartford, Connecticut. There were very few churches there at the time, I think this, it's still a needy city, honestly, for churches. But

Jeff Leake: 21:04

shortly after that, you and Gilbert Ackerman and I drove all the way up through upstate New York, up to Vermont to visit a church planter up there, down through New Hampshire, and then eventually to Hartford, yep, where we were also working with a church planter there. And that was sort of a spiritual exploration trip to see if maybe God would speak to you. Well,

Dave Leake: 21:23

you didn't. We didn't have church planter there yet, because he ended up planting world, yeah. But we were, at least we were looking at, we, yeah. Okay, so that's the story. I think I'm gonna plant there. I have about six months where I was working as the church plant, church plant relations direct director, or something like that. Essentially, I was helping to resource people in the process of planting. This was at the beginning of the 100 church vision that God gave to you, that we had for 10 years, that God did realistically in five years. It was a wild time. And I was thinking like, I think Hartford, so essentially located. This would be a great place to be and to multiply out of there. And then God closed that door, and I felt like this isn't the right time. And I felt like I was supposed to step into youth ministry, which is not never what I wanted to do initially, but I felt like God prompted me take this step. So I did. And I was like, three years that I'm planting, and then it became maybe five years, and then I ended up being there for seven years. And then I was thinking, well, maybe I'll plant now. And it was like, No. And then the North Side campus position opened up. And I had been thinking because it was a city reach church plant before, which is a very urban you know, a lot of these guys were former gangsters, like drug runners, you know, checkered history, and now they got saved. They've created testimony, but they're like, from an area like that, where I grew up in Hampton Township, super white kid, yeah, exactly, you know? Yeah, pastors. Kid, so I was like, I don't know if this is a fit. God asked me to do it, and then it's been wonderful. So all of that led me to this moment where, out of nowhere, it's like, Okay, we're back to square one. I know I'm supposed to leave. Maybe it's church finding, but I've investigated this so much that I have a profile in my mind of what an ideal church planter looks like. And there are some attributes that are not as natural to me that would take a lot to step into. Namely, like their prototype church planners are amazing gatherers. They walk into them, they're like, hey, and they people are like, wow, I want to go with them. Like, that's awesome. And I can, I can be like that. But it's like, it's going outside of my natural personality a little bit. It's like, I don't know if I want to do this. So you were now we're at another pit basketball game, like, 10 years later, which is hilarious, and maybe not 10 five

Jeff Leake: 23:39

probably lost both of them.

Dave Leake: 23:42

But it got worse over time, though, because, anyway, so, so we're at this game, and they're getting they're getting killed, and it's a really bad basketball game, and we're talking about where we could go. And you were like, if you were going to church plant anywhere in the country, you know, where would you want to go? And I was like, I don't know if I want to plan. You're like, yeah, yeah. But if you did, where would you go? And I was like, Well, I was like, well, here's here's our process. I feel like we've prayed about the Northeast, and I feel like God shut that down. I felt like a no, and I feel like the Midwest is a no, and the deep south really doesn't feel like us. We were considering a lot of West place, like West US, west coast, but now that we've been there, like it's such a far distance from family, if God called us, we would do it. But doesn't feel like it's exactly a fit. And I was like, randomly, I sort of feel like the southeast coast, like North Carolina on down through Florida, is what we feel drawn to. I was like, I was gonna plant somewhere. It'd probably be Jacksonville, Florida. And you were like, Why Jacksonville? And I was like, Well, you know, Sarah has family down there, and I have some friends down there that went to school with and, you know, it kind of has the right vibe of the kind of city I'd want to be in, but I don't even know. And you're like, well, let's plan a trip. So you plan a trip in February. Then I went to CMN conference in Houston, church multiplication network that the Assemblies of God has as the church planting arm of our. The nomination. And you know, it's a good conference, and I happen to stop there's breakout sessions. After one of the main conference sessions, you go pick your room and your speaker. And I stopped in the hallway, and you know, Pastor Brad leach was there, planted city life Philly, and he just was asking me, how's the search going, like he knew I was in the process, and essentially, like he just shared his story, which was so similar, like, almost identical, in terms of what he went through, almost went to a different church, and then God closed that door and had reservations about going where he ended up, because he was sort of like, this feels like, you know, easier than what I thought I was going to call me to he was thinking, maybe Amsterdam one point. And anyway, he kind of helped to debunk some of the concerns and fears I had. So I was like, okay, like, maybe this is real. And finally, maybe about two weeks ago, we went to Jacksonville, and when we're down there, I was like, so here's here's now. I guess the tension that I had that this 25 minutes of story building you've gotten to, yeah, I got there and I was like, this is incredible. Like, it is so nice here. You know, we used to drive like, 16 hours down in the summer for vacation to go to the sort of just south of the Panama City area in Florida. And I've always had a special place in my heart there. My grandparents had a little, small home there that they would let us stay in. Me and Sarah, we took, you know,$100 flights down to the Tampa, Arizona, sort of Sarasota area, Bradenton. So we loved it. We get to Jacksonville, it's like, this place is amazing. Like, it would

Unknown: 26:34

be like, Could God call me to someplace I want to live?

Dave Leake: 26:36

Yeah, it felt like, like, this would, I mean, selfishly, you know, it's like people that, like, you're like, Oh, we're gonna go, you know, to a missions trip to Jamaica. And I know they have need there, but at first year that you're like, you're gonna be at the sandy resort half the time. I mean, like, Mission strip, sure, but you're also going because it's Jamaica, you know, no no disting on Jamaica. But so I that kind of was the feeling I had, almost like, this is so beautiful here. It's warm. They never have to deal with Pittsburgh winters. You know, it's, it's it's more. There are more days of sun than there are in Jacksonville than there are days of cloudiness here, which is wild. We're the second cloudiest city in America, and they're one of the sunniest. I mean, it's amazing. And so I think Sarah and I are driving around. It's me, you Sarah, and then our son John, who's four months old, he's in the back of his car driving around the city. And I was just like, God, I really hope you give me like a lightning bolt, like pow moment where it's like, we're supposed to come, because I don't know how we're gonna differentiate, like, we would love to be here, but I don't want to go somewhere unless I feel like you're in this and you're in this and you're leading us, and I know you're leading us somewhere, so like we just want to know, and we never really got that moment. And so it's sort of at this point, I this is exactly what the conversation sounds like. We're we've been driving around Jacksonville for, you know, half a day. We started in, you know, the Jacksonville North Side drove down, the west side, came down all the way to St Augustine, and kind of came back up,

Jeff Leake: 28:04

by the way, big shout out to St Augustine. What a beautiful, beautiful, yes, right on the coast.

Dave Leake: 28:08

And so we're coming back up. And I'm like, so we love this, but like, help us, because I don't think either of us has had a moment that it's like, you know, prophetic word from God, like, this is it. And we just don't want to, want to go for not supposed to be here. And then you kind of had a lot of thoughts that helped me to discern so I

Jeff Leake: 28:28

guess I just, I just reflected back everything I heard from you, right? Yeah, so,

Dave Leake: 28:31

so, so let's talk about this, because I think maybe that there would be some principles and some of our conversation. Yeah.

Jeff Leake: 28:38

First thing I said is, when God calls you to a place. It doesn't have to be some place you hate, right? So a lot of times, I think what happens with people is they think, if it's the will of God, it has to be hard. It's like people will say, don't say you don't want to go to wherever, because he's going to make you go there, right? Don't say you don't want to do this, because then God will almost like he's waiting to punish you with something like Siberia, yeah. So I said, you know, you got a bug on your microphone. Please

Unknown: 29:06

freak me out,

Jeff Leake: 29:08

yeah, one of those stink bugs that crawl on the

Unknown: 29:11

day you put that away. What if that one got my face? That would have been that, or flew into your mouth? That would have been a moment. Okay. Anyway, yeah, so Siberia. So I said, you

Jeff Leake: 29:21

know, when we moved to Pittsburgh, Melody, Melody grew up in Texas and in Panama and Nicaragua, one of the last places on earth she'd ever been like she would never think about going to the north, where it was snowy. She just, she likes the beach too. But I remember her saying, I just want to go someplace and stay. We moved a lot as a family. I'm gonna go someplace I must stay. And then once she got to Pittsburgh, like we'll be driving down into the city and on the highway and seeing the buildings and melody will just say, just like you said about Jacksonville, I love Pittsburgh so much. Like this is my home. I just love this city. So when, when you feel cold. Called to a place God eventually makes you love it. Now, there are things about Pittsburgh that I love, just like there are things about like, I love the Pittsburgh Steelers. I love that. I love the vibe of Pittsburgh. I love the family orientation of Pittsburgh. I love the Three Rivers. I love the history here. I love the three the three seasons, the four seasons. I hate that it's cloudy and rainy, right? But there are so many things that I that I love about Pittsburgh. So for me, it's not a sacrifice to live here. It's, it's, it's my joy. Now, you probably love some of those things too, but when God calls you someplace else and you go and you're like, you're like, This is great. Like, we were growing across one of the bridges, and we were looking at the city, and you were like, this even kind of looks like Pittsburgh. I mean, it has bridges and a little river. And I was like, yeah, if you, if you put clouds over the top and made it rain, would look like Pittsburgh. So I said, just because you have a desire for this doesn't mean that's not God's will. That's actually one of the signs that maybe God's put this in your heart. And then I started unpack, and I said, when I asked you first, Dave, where would you go if you could plan anyplace else? What did you say? You said, Jacksonville. I said, Okay, we're down here exploring if, if you, if we come away and we're not certain, where else are you going to go? What's your next city? And you're like, I don't really have one.

Unknown: 31:15

I was like, Oh, Beast, back to square one. Yeah. Okay. So there's,

Jeff Leake: 31:19

like, this is pretty high up on the list, right? And you said, Yeah. And I said, okay, one of the things that happens whenever you get into a city, especially if you are called apostolically, to plant a church. So the larger concept is, I'm not just here to plant one congregation, but I want to really make an impact on the city. I said, if you're called that way, when you look at the map, you start to have prophetic thoughts. And I said, What thoughts do you have when you look at the map and you were like, well, there's a highway that goes all the way around the city, and I could see actually planting churches all around that highway. I said, Okay, that's a sign. It's not just a strategic thought. With you. You were starting to have visions and dreams for the the area as we were driving around and and then we hit one spot. I don't remember what it was. It was we were nearing Sarasota beach Central, something,

Dave Leake: 32:06

yeah, not Sarasota, but yeah, it's, uh, center parks. We were talking about, yeah, we were

Jeff Leake: 32:11

getting close to Jacksonville Beach, I'm sorry, yeah, on the other coast Central, what

Dave Leake: 32:15

it's called, Center Park. Center Park, okay, it's sort of near the beaches on the east side. And

Jeff Leake: 32:19

Sarah started to say, oh yeah. Could see us here, like this, like, up until that she'd been pretty quiet. You're like, oh yeah, this feels like the kind of place we could plan. And I was, you were like, you were like, Yeah, I think this could be, like, it would be kind of in an area like this. I'm not saying that it will be in Center Park. I'm just saying that that was what you were saying when you were there and and so I, you know, I said I named other parts of the country. I said, You're not Northwest, no, you're not northeast, no, you're not Midwest, no, you're not Texas, no, you're not in another country. No. So, okay, so you're gonna someplace in Florida, and it's probably someplace on this side of the state, right? Would you want to maybe not go here and reapply for some of the churches that you saw online that were open. No, I wouldn't feel so well by process of elimination, aren't we kind of here? Like, and then you got real quiet and and, like, 10 seconds later, you're like, Yeah, this is where we're supposed to be. Like, it wasn't, wasn't like, I prompted that. It was like a reflex. You said it out loud, and then instantly, were like, oh, sorry, I'm sorry. I didn't want to speak for you. Maybe you don't feel that. And then she said quickly, no, I agree with you. This is where we're supposed to be. So it wasn't a lightning bolt, but it was a moment. It was definitely a moment. Yeah. And then from there, the conversation was all right, now what? Maybe we should look at housing prices. Lynn, how do we figure out where we would land? And maybe we should find out. And I said, Take me back to the hotel. I'm done. You guys know where you're doing. I'll let you drive around. We

Unknown: 33:50

saw you on the flight back. Not

Jeff Leake: 33:53

that I didn't love Florida. I just had work to do, and I was really there only for one purpose, and that was just to help you figure it out, sure. And if you had said, No, it's not Jacksonville, we got to keep looking. We would have looked. We sure. Ultimately, what I what I want for your life, both as your pastor and your dad, is for you to be in the center of God's will do whatever that is Pittsburgh would be great, because the grandkids would be closer, and you would be on my team. But if you're called to Jacksonville, that is what I want you to be doing, wherever in the world, God wants you to be. And so you had, I like to call it a 70% aha moment. Wasn't 1,000% it was like a maybe more,

Dave Leake: 34:34

right? Well, I would say we were already at 65% before that trip was supposed to go there. And I would say it got us to like, 95%

Jeff Leake: 34:42

Oh, okay, well, so when you said, Yeah, we're supposed to be here, you were 95 at that point. Yeah.

Dave Leake: 34:46

I mean, even, even now, as we're talking about it, it's like the minute. So I think we were just so in our heads about the possibility of missing it and and like, doing something fleshly, like, oh, this. Is just a fun idea. Like, and, you know, we were even discussing this afterwards, like, you know, if, like, a lot of times it feels like pastors are the only ones that don't get to choose where you live in them in the world. Like, if you have another job, you can just be like, we're gonna move here. But like, you know, at least the way we do it, like,

Jeff Leake: 35:17

we know when you have an assignment someplace, I've never thought about leaving Pittsburgh because I felt called here. So if you were to say, well, where would you like to live? I would be like, oh, man, I've never been I've never really thought of that from a desires point of view. Yeah, so, but I will. Let's come back to a principle. I think that can I kind of finish

Dave Leake: 35:38

my story? I've just taken a side. We'll go to principal a second. I was going to say, I was gonna say, I feel like we were so in our heads. And I felt like, whenever you helped to de bunk some of the concerns we had, it just like, sort of like settled and even, like, now, as we're like, talking about, I'm like, I am so excited to go, like, I don't think that we quite have the feel for the culture yet. Or, you know, know, where the different types of groups people live and everything, but it feels like, it feels like a responsibility that is our joy, and, you know, privilege to go, and we're so excited about it. And I think it wasn't 1,000% like, you know, like, yeah, like, we see something, we start weeping. I know, like, Russ horn had that kind of experience when he played it in Sharpsburg, but it was a clear confirmation. We, I don't think we've questioned it at all since now we're like, Yeah, this is, it's not a 70% we were almost at 70 before going and then it was like, it was actually just like, permission. Like, I think we can do this. You know what? I mean. Okay, so, yeah, it was crazy. So the

Jeff Leake: 36:44

thing that was throwing you is that you wanted to go there in a way, yeah,

Dave Leake: 36:48

yeah. Well, okay, so I'll be real honest. Now this is the real honest part. I think seeing all of these, you know, monster church planters, going to tough places in the northeast, you know, like Brad Leach, or will Hampton or, I mean, there are so many that we could sort of go through, but they were some of the early ones that I was watching plant. We took our tour up around the northeast and 13, and they went to the hard places. Yeah, they went to hard places, yeah. Like, like, nobody's going to Binghamton, you know what I mean, where they planted two rivers, or, like, you know, Philly city, yeah, going to South Philly. So I was like, that's awesome. Like, these are, like, real man church. You know what? I mean, they're going to these places that are, you know, that are hard ground. And Florida, like, I Jacksonville, has a need for churches, but it's not the same need that Connecticut has, right? It's not the same need that, like, totally untrue Boston, right? It's like, oh, I never even you know nobody since my great grandparents have ever even stepped inside of a church. Like, that's a different level. So I think church planting will always be hard. It's never an easy thing. But I think I was also like, I would love to live here, and it's not in the the icy, frozen north, like where I thought I always was going to be, but that, but that was a clear No. I prayed about that. I felt like God was like, Don't do this. Well,

Jeff Leake: 38:10

what I said to you is, strategically, again, just most of you know this about me, but I have been helping other church planters get started since 1996 and I have had those drive around conversations like I had with Dave and Sarah and Jacksonville with, I don't know, maybe 100 plus church planters over the years. And there are two really great places to plant a church. One is the hard space where people are either moving out or there's not a lot of good news, because when you bring a life giving church to that space, you become the best thing going on in the neighborhood. And the other place is the place where people are moving in, so where you have high transiency, where you have a transplant of immigrants and people moving from other places into a place. And Jacksonville is booming with people moving in. So there's a huge need. It actually is the Northeast. It's just the Northeast when they become snowbirds, right? It's, it's, it's Florida has has people

Dave Leake: 39:06

flooding them. So Jacksonville has 94 people a day moving there on average, right now, yeah,

Jeff Leake: 39:11

which is crazy. So that would be a place missionally that you would say that you'd want to plant, because it's reaching people that are not being reached, which is the whole purpose, not how hard it is, but it's really who, who you're trying to reach, and why a good church is needed there. So, um, and, and here was my principal point, anytime you being led by God, you typically only get 65 or 70% before you have to make a call and finding out if that's the right thing. When you're at the 65 to 7570 75% mark is when you start to poke at it. What we did when we drove around is we were just poking at it. Holy Spirit. Is this right? Does this feel good? Sometimes you get the lightning bolt moment where you weep and cry and someone gives you a undeniable prophetic word. Thus says the Lord, you're supposed to be here most often. It's more foggy than that, and when you're trying to make a decision about the future, you're collecting revelational data, right? What has God said from, from what vantage point, what do we feel is this right? What's the input we're getting from other people? Does this still feel right, like it's a constant collection of revelational data from different sources, until finally, that percentage becomes strong enough inside that it becomes conviction. And then that conviction you use to continue to poke. So what will happen? Now, Dave is about prophesy and speak predictively based on experience, is you will start to move, and you will find these divine appointments that God has set up for you. Because whenever he calls you to a place and assigns you to a space, he does it because he's already been working there for you and for this work to be established before you even said yes. It's like God was moving things in Moses's life when he was at the burning bush and he was standing there even before he had said yes, he had spoken to Aaron, his brother on the other side, to move in his direction. So God's got, God's got things moving toward you, where you're going to live, where the building's going to be, who's going to be on your team. Favor you're going to get from people in the community. God is not waiting for you to move to Jacksonville to start all that in motion. He's preparing all that for you so that when you step into the will of God, you're stepping into his preparation for you, which also provides a lot of confidence and comfort that you're not going to making this up as you go along. You're partnering with God to plant something he's called you to in a place he's already prepared for you, absolutely, yeah, and that's not just true for Dave and Sarah and this church plant in Jacksonville. It's true for anybody trying to follow Jesus. The will of God is is always something where you're stepping into something he's assigned you to and is preparing you for, yeah? So discerning that is so important, because you, if you just go out of your own idea, you miss the preparation of God, like there's a, there's a table he set for you, yeah, in Jacksonville that isn't set for you in the northwest, right? Or, yeah. So if you had ended up in a space that wasn't his will, you would have stepped into a non prepared space in Jacksonville, he's prepared something for you, yeah? And the reason why you feel spiritually hot inside is because you're actually, it's like, it's like, the game colder, warmer. Like, am I get. And it's like, as you drive around, the Holy Spirit say, warmer, warmer, warmer. Like, you can just almost sense it inside. The Holy Spirit's saying, Oh, wait till you see what I got here. Like, that street we're on. Oh, you're going to be the guy right here. It's going to be so amazing. Like, you don't know all that yet, but the Holy Spirit knows that, and that's part of why he gets more active inside you, the closer you get to what he's prepared for you. Yeah, and that now you're on the journey of amazing discovery. You're going to step into all this stuff that God has prepared for you that you just don't know about yet. Yeah, that one day you're telling the story of of how God provided and again, this is true for everybody. If you say, Yes, God, I want to follow your will and your way. Everybody has a prepared future.

Dave Leake: 43:05

Yeah, and I think it's about asking God and seeking His Will until you kind of find that this is what God has for me, principle that I'll reflect on that. You know, Pastor Brad leach was talking about this. He was just he I was saying, I was expressing my hesitance about going to Florida. Because he was like, You, this feels like a place you want to vacation. And I was like, Yeah, I don't know if I can go there.

Jeff Leake: 43:30

Like, here's a little side as I transition and have more time as I move into another role, and not the lead pastor role. This is a great place for me to go see my grandkids.

Dave Leake: 43:39

Absolutely. Yeah, so. But he was like, you know, I think it's a theological error to believe that God's will is always whatever it the hardest thing is, yeah. And he told me a story. He was like, for for me, when I was younger, I went to Amsterdam, and I thought this would be the hardest place to love to plant a church. He's like, so it must be for me, yeah, because it's hard, and it'd be suffering, and it'd be holy and God, you know, obviously, I've been here for a reason, but he said, you know, Philly is a lot easier than Amsterdam would be. Philly's hard. It's really hard. It's a hard place to plant, but it's easier than Amsterdam. But even if I would have planted in Amsterdam, there's harder places. There's Sudan, you know, yeah, Pakistan, like, Sure, it's harder place. There's always a harder assignment than what God's given you, and you can't. There

Jeff Leake: 44:22

are always things that are uniquely hard and difficult about where you're going, and there's always things that are uniquely wonderful, right, right? No place is all difficulty in I guess you'd say there may be some but, and there's a joy somewhere. Yeah, did it all and

Dave Leake: 44:37

so, but I think he helped, just to sort of remind me, like you don't judge whether you're on track for God's Will based on how much suffering or how hard it's going to be, like God is it? And that's something that I felt like I had heard God saying to me in sort of my anxiety moments about this process, is like God's not handing me over to be tortured with this assignment. Like it doesn't necessarily mean it's. Gonna be easy, but like, God, has something good in mind for me for this. And I think that just sort of like, released something like, oh, like, I can kind of consider anywhere, you know, and not automatically rule off places that are perceivably a better assignment, like being by the beach, which is a great one for me. You know what I mean? Like, rule that out just because it's desirable. And again, I so for me, a lot of the a lot of the process of discerning in this season has been just untangling the thoughts that I have that are weighing me down, like I'm it's almost like, I don't know how you would not overthink it if I had to do this all over again. I'm not sure that I could just, like, Don't overthink it. I think I would have to, well, you that's one of your things. That is one of my things, yeah? But I think God sort of stripped little pieces of that off until it was like, okay, like, here's a piece. This is the right thing. Like, there's there. And there's been a lot of confirmation signs, yeah. Now, okay,

Jeff Leake: 45:58

so now let's leverage the last few minutes of this podcast by a couple things. So first, I will say that Allison Park Church has now planted directly, 33 churches. And we've been, you know, I guess downline, there have been churches that we've planted, that have planted, and then there have been some granddaughter churches too, meaning to downline. So there's, there's a whole group, but we've now done 33 and it seemed like for a little season, our planting got put on hold. But, you know, Colin Robinson has already moved to New York City. Next year, he'll be planting freedom church there. You're going to go to Jacksonville. It appears like there are four new churches that we will, including me and Colin, including you guys, and maybe in adopting a fifth in 2026 which is amazing how God is reopening that. And so we feel like we're almost entering a second season of planting. So I'll just say, if you are hearing this and you feel the Lord is calling you to plant a church, we are an organization that loves to partner with church planters, so please reach out to us that that might be something we could have a conversation with you about. If you are hearing us talk about Jacksonville, and something inside of you is jumping, and you might want to move with Dave to plant there. Or maybe you're listening to this and you're in Jacksonville or nearby, we would love to hear from you.

Dave Leake: 47:18

Come, come join me. Seriously, like, so I feel like, since God has given me this assignment, I'm like, This is what God wants me to do. I get to go move to Jacksonville, right by the beach, to do ministry there. Look, if anybody feels like, here's what I've been thinking like, somebody's feeling like, I've always wanted to move down there. It's just not been the right season. And maybe there's a job opening that you could apply for. If God stirs you, please come, you know what I mean? Or maybe, maybe even, you know, you've been feeling stirred to invest into something. One of the beginning phases, you know, that I'm in right now is starting to raise the funds that will take to launch the church. If you'd like to give you know, we would love

Jeff Leake: 47:57

you can do through Allison Park Kingdom builders plan. We'll have a category for that very soon. Or if you know somebody lives in that region and you want to tell them about it, please, we're just in the beginning of that, that face, maybe at some point in the future, we could bring all our church planters on and have a like a group conversation about this that might be in it. We've never done anything quite like that before. Yeah, and so yeah. And if you're just in the process where you're trying to figure it out, now this may be hard for me to fulfill, I'll just throw this to you. So if you're a pastor, a leader, and you're in a role in ministry, and you're in that process where you need to have a conversation with someone about what God's calling you to do next, I'd be open to scheduling that phone call with you if you want to, if you want to talk. I kind of say, I don't know, I have helped people discern this process so many times. This is probably not the right term. It's not a spiritual term, but I kind of have a spidey sense for this, like, like, God has used me to help clarify for people the next step a lot. And so I have some discernment in me. I think one of my one of the ways I partner with Holy Spirit is through that wisdom and discernment. And so that's been a joy with you, Dave. So think about it from a dad's point of view. Now, the ability to meet with you and Josh over the last couple years, just to unpack life and philosophy and ministry that's been beautiful. It's birth this podcast, and then to be a part of your life, where I get to help you discern the will of God for Jacksonville, then be on your team to cheer you on and help raise money for you. And all this is the greatest thing ever for me. Some of you might think, oh, man, wouldn't have been great if Dave could have been your successor. And and here's what I think. I don't really have an agenda on that piece. I just want all of my kids to find the will of God for their life, whatever that is. So I find as much joy in this as if you had stayed here and done that like to me, it doesn't carry any. Greater value either way, and and that's not just to say my natural kids like I find great joy in spiritual sons and daughters. Like I was just in New York City with Colin Robinson, walking around the flat iron District of New York City and Manhattan and dreaming about the church he's going to plant. And I've I found I find such great joy in helping people discover what God's called them to do and step into it, especially when it's in the realm of church planning, yeah, but, but I also love it when I'm involved with people like Tim and Kelly Pollack, who are in Indonesia planting a church and pastoring like when people become missionaries, several some of our recent APA grads have gone on to short term missions assignments for like, a year, and I got to pray over Maggie, who's going, Yeah, permanently to kill gorus last weekend. Yeah. And there's just such joy in that, like, such a joy in helping people find what God's called them to do. And when you're the person in that and you find out what God's called you to you, there's such I don't think, how would you describe the emotion, Dave, it's like, settled, excited, inspired. It's like, it's

Dave Leake: 51:08

terrifying mix of so many things all in the world, but it but I guess at the bottom, it's like, at least I have resolution. I think it was harder to have that chafing of like, I know God's asking me if something like, what just like tell me, because it's frustrating to sort of have, you know, six plus months of having no idea when you felt clearly stirred, but it's relief, and it's excitement, and it's yeah, it's all the stuff concern and

Jeff Leake: 51:34

yeah, and let me talk about one other group of people. So if you're a pastor of a church and you have a great staff member like Dave is here, and they come to you and they say, I think I'm supposed to go do something else. Some pastors have in the past said, Well, if you're not here, then you're not here. You got two weeks to get out, like you short circuit the process. You put a lot of pressure on the young man or woman that's thinking about their future, and you don't get the joy of walking on this journey. And there's this great phrase that Bob Buford, who's a spiritual leader and a businessman, said, my fruit grows on other people's trees. I love that phrase. So there's a certain level of Kingdom fruitfulness that comes from doing things that don't have any direct benefit on you, like you're leaving me, right? You're I have to, I have to replace you at the north side. That's gonna cause me grief. I mean, it's a transition I have to walk through. That's a pain. But that's, that's not what I'm thinking about right now. Like I am thinking about making a plan so that the people of the north side campus are well led, and then we get the right leader moving forward. But ultimately, I want to be about the kingdom. And so to pastors who go through this, because you have staff members that do come to you and say, I think I'm supposed to do something else. There's a limit to it. Like, if you'd have been three years praying about where you're, that would have been a long time. So somewhere between six months and three years is probably where we want to be. Like, I don't think you perpetually thinking about leaving, but, but, but when you take the journey, you know that's a reasonable journey to discern the will of God. It's such a great thing for the Kingdom. It's a great thing for you as a spiritual dad, as a pastor or a spiritual mom and and it's great for the person that you're launching, because there's such an advantage when you have the backing of a local church that's going to say, Hey, you're creating a problem for us, but we're behind you 100% look, we want to help you succeed. We'll send missions teams, we'll send money. Like, what do you need? You can take people with you, like, I have lived this over and over and over, and God has never let me go unrepaid For that which I have sowed into the kingdom. So that's just for those who are maybe one day find themselves in that same situation. So

Dave Leake: 53:49

I guess, in closing, my, you know, my fresh challenge, I just would love to extend anybody else, like, step into whatever God's will for you is, yeah, you know, like, I feel like, I'll say it at least like this in our circle right now, God is stirring so many things. He's opening a lot of doors. And I think what was birthed in me for church planning was birthed out of seeing people like, you know, Brad leash and will Hampton, and it's like, wow, maybe that's gonna be me someday. Same with Colin. I believe same kind of thing. So if God is stirring something like jump on in. Yeah.

Jeff Leake: 54:23

And if, and if you're in a space where he's not stirring anything, stay where you are and be fruitful there until you hear otherwise, because sometimes it's exciting to move on from what is. But I am living the life story of being in the same place for 34 years, right? And I haven't left. And there's a fruitfulness that comes with rootedness and stability. And so whatever God's called you to do, do that because that's the best thing you could do.

Dave Leake: 54:48

Well, we appreciate, as always, you joining us today in our episode. Thanks for hearing my story. I feel a little self conscious that I spent like, 30 minutes just like telling the details, but maybe it spoke to you in some. Way, and if it did, or if it might help somebody else that you've been in conversations with, as far as about their future. And there's some unresolved nature we would love if you'd share this with them. You can also help us out by liking and subscribing on YouTube or leaving a comment, which we would love to interact with you about. And of course, as always, you can give us a five star review on whatever platform you're listening to this on. So we appreciate you so much for being a part of this. We'll see you guys again next time bye.