Allison Park Leadership Podcast

Christian Persecution in America: Is Trump’s New Task Force “Blasphemous”?

• Jeff and Dave Leake • Season 6 • Episode 6

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Is there really Christian persecution in America? 🇺🇸 

Pastors Dave and Jeff Leake dive deep into the new controversial Trump task force, discussing the tension this brings to light.

This podcast episode examines the recent Trump administration's task force on anti-Christian bias and discusses:

  • The current state of religious freedom in the United States
  • Challenges facing Christian communities
  • Navigating faith in a changing cultural landscape
  • Balancing biblical principles with cultural engagement

Don't miss this eye-opening conversation!

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Dave Leake:

Recently, President Trump commissioned a group called the task force to eradicate anti Christian bias, and that's created some waves even within Christian cultures. In fact, one guy posted a clip calling it not just bad politics, but blasphemy. We want to take a look at are Christians persecuted in America and in a nation that is increasingly secular. How should we conduct ourselves, and how do we interface with all the stuff that President Trump is doing? So if you want to hear more, tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have culture creating conversations. My name is Dave and

Jeff Leake:

my name is Jeff, and we're glad you've joined us today. Of course, we're both father and son and also pastors on staff at Allison Park Church, and we want to welcome you today to today's episode. So yes, we do. Where are we going? Dave, gratitude.

Dave Leake:

No five star reviews to shout out today, but we want to say a big thank you to all of our regular, regular listeners. We're excited to have you. You know, on another episode, we appreciate also all the suggestions. We're getting a lot more suggestions now, you know, episodes and topics and ideas to discuss. We'll have one soon, I think on a new episode, not today, but yeah, so we have one today. Oh, is this from a question?

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, this is from a question. I didn't tell you that. Oh, yeah. Okay, so I, you know how when you're on Facebook and somebody mentions you in a post. It, it sort of tags you and shows up in your feed. Oh, this is the one that's yeah, this is the one. Okay, yeah. So Tammy Wasco had a post on her Instagram. She posted something from a guy the handle of the of the real, Joe Smith, and he was talking about a recent decision by the Trump administration to appoint a task force to search out anti Christian discrimination across the country. And Joe Smith was reacting against that. And Tammy had multiple comments from different people in her friend group and at the end of her discussions with people, she basically said to us at the bottom, let's see if I can read the direct quote that that was listed here. So she basically called for our podcast to address this conversation that they were having online. And let's see. So at the end of interaction with a guy named Jim Baldwin, she says, Jeff Lee, could you and Dave maybe do a podcast on the subject?

Dave Leake:

So I thought the bad signal, yeah. So I thought

Jeff Leake:

this is kind of cool. We we've been invited into a conversation about Christian issues and politics off of a Facebook page. So we thought we would kind of

Dave Leake:

dive into that, right? You want to, we have the video that we can play, right? Okay, so this is

Jeff Leake:

the post that was put on Instagram by a pastor church in Gainesville, Florida. Gainesville, Florida, okay, so first, I think before we show Joe Smith the pastor's comments about Trump's recent decision. We're not here to attack Joe Smith, okay, so we're we're here, so we're going to use his comments as a place to start our discussion. But we're not so if Joe you hear this podcast, we're not after you, or we're not trying to do anything to diminish you as as a pastor or as a leader. We're just going to use your comments, which you put online publicly, to start our discussion points, because this was what Tammy, who is part of Allison Park Church, just asked us to weigh in on. So we're going to weigh in on your comments based upon that question. And we have that, I think, to play. Do you anything else you want to say before we listening? Okay? Again. Recently, the Trump administration appointed a task force to, I think, out of the Department of Justice to look to see if there was any evidence of anti Christian discrimin discrimination across the country, and Pastor Joe Smith was reacting to that. So let's go ahead and look at this clip.

Unknown:

I Let's talk about it. As a Christian and a pastor, I need to say this clearly, this is not about protecting faith. It's about power. Christians are not persecuted in the United States. We are the majority. Our holidays are national holidays. Politicians quote the Bible to score points. Churches don't pay taxes. Christian symbols and language are everywhere in public life. This isn't about protecting religious freedom. It's about enforcing Christian nationalism, the belief that Christianity should dominate public life and government. And it's not just dangerous politically, it is anti Christian. Jesus didn't seek political power and he didn't demand special treatment. He taught us to love our neighbors, care for the marginalized, and to lay down power, not hoard it. But what's happening here is just the opposite. It's using faith as a weapon to silence dissent and to prop up a majority culture that's already in control. Many of us grew up hearing that Christian. Were persecuted here in the United States. But come on, that's not true. That's not about oppression. It's about maintaining control. It's about getting defensive when marginalized groups start getting some attention, some representation, maybe even some rights. If your faith needs government protection, it's not faith, it's fear. The Gospel doesn't need an executive order and needs people living out love, justice and humility. This is not just bad politics, it's blasphemy.

Jeff Leake:

Okay, there you go. So there's a whole bunch in this little commentary that I agree with. There's a whole bunch that I think is maybe said with a particular point of view for a political reason. And I would say some of what he's saying I think is good in other parts of it I'm not so sure about. And I'm looking at your face, David, I think he triggered you. Did the reaction?

Dave Leake:

Okay, yeah. I mean, I get where he's coming from. If he had a different point in mind, I probably would agree with a lot of what he's saying. I don't think that there's if you're if you're talking about a comparative scale of persecution throughout Christian history, or even just the present world today. Christian Christians are not persecuted on that scale in America, not even close.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah. I mean, if you consider the fact that in Syria, in the last couple of weeks, 1000 Christians were killed because of a conflict that's going on there, or in Nigeria, headings

Dave Leake:

that are happening, yeah, burning down of buildings all across the world, kidnappings because of

Jeff Leake:

so many people killed in Nigeria last year who were, who were believers. So historically, America has been, you know, again, very, very friendly to Christianity. And yes, our holidays are celebrated, and churches don't pay taxes, and the proper response to

Dave Leake:

no religious or mosques don't pay taxes, synagogues don't pay taxes, yeah, so, I mean, I guess in the sense that all religions and

Jeff Leake:

their holidays are also being recognized because we're more of a pluralistic society, yeah,

Dave Leake:

that was one issue I took with it. It's like, okay, true. But then also holidays like Christmas and Easter have been repurposed for commercialized, secular purposes, right? So I guess they're celebrated in a non religious sense, yeah, but it's, I guess that feels a little disingenuous to me, because it's actually, it's true, but it's true in a grippy, click baity way more than it is a totally factual, accurate way, like it's true. But yeah, so I guess I get the persecution thing. I think, I think when you compare Christianity to Islam and America and the way it's treated, I think people are very careful of what they say. They're very respectful of what they say about Islam well now,

Jeff Leake:

but if you would go back to 911 era, that's not true. No, you're right, yeah, I'm thinking in 2025, 2025 that's that's very true, yeah, although, if you were to talk to an Imam, he might be able to tell you stories of of

Dave Leake:

discrimination that happened. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I guess I'm talking about from a public online, or a TV or internet kind of

Jeff Leake:

a, yeah, so we could distinguish popular culture, there you go. Is clearly anti Christian, but not popular culture, meaning movies, television and music would would not be anti Islam, right? Popular culture. But there was a time like, I don't remember, sure the TV show 24 which was like, the first can't, what do they call that when you just can't stop watching binge binge watch. Okay, yeah, so it was one of the first binge board of these shows. Almost all the enemies were Islamic. Okay, so 20 years ago, if you were to talk to someone from that tribe of you know, that religious background, they would probably tell you, No, I feel, I feel, constantly, we

Dave Leake:

were in the middle of a war with, you know, jihadists and terrorists, and so it was sort of the the cultural context of the time.

Jeff Leake:

So if you were to go back to the 1950s Christianity was presented in a very positive way, right, right from a popular culture. Now, that's not the case. Popular culture is anti Christian. I would say that's pretty clear. And maybe because of that constant messaging, Christians may feel more persecuted than than we really are. There might be a little bit of a war of words over it. Then maybe we feel, you know, because it's sort of like popular to pile on whatever the majority culture is that that's kind of like the trend of today?

Dave Leake:

Well, yeah, I also think, like, there's a whole, what's it called? There's a whole genre of TV shows, if you look on Netflix now, one of the labels there's a genre called irreverent, which is taking things that have formerly been sacred and treating them kind of you. Know, lightly or a dark humor, kind of a sense about things that were reverent. A lot of those are Christian things, yeah.

Jeff Leake:

Well, we talked about, what was the word we used, Dave whenever desecration, desecration, where the Biden administration celebrated transgender identity day on Easter, right? Okay, so that was one of those places where you felt that, again, not desecration is different for persecution, right? So, but

Dave Leake:

I just think the other thing too is when we're talking about the anti Christian bias in pop culture, we're talking about anti conservative Christian Right, as opposed to progressive, inclusive. So

Jeff Leake:

just for sure, just fruitful disclosure, the real Joe Smith, if you were to look at his Instagram profile, has a LGBTQ rainbow on his profile right. And he pastors an open and affirming Church, which means that he would not hold to biblical authority when it comes to building doctrine, right? Yeah? Well, yeah. I wonder

Dave Leake:

what he would say about that, but he would probably say some of those that are outdated or they're misinterpreted, but most Bible scholars that we would take seriously would be like, I mean, it's really clear on issues of Christian sexuality, realize it's a sensitive issue, yeah, culture, but the Bible is not unclear, yeah,

Jeff Leake:

and, and just just, you know, everybody's probably aware of these things to some degree, but even, like the United Methodist Church has just recently had a split over, not over Christian nationalism versus progressive political parties, but over this issue of, what does the Bible say about sexuality? If you are affirming, you tend to believe that the Bible doesn't have any moral values on sex, that sex is just sex, and there's not any restrictions on it, and it basically, no matter what you come from or how you identify, you should be included in the church without it being labeled as sinful. There's probably

Dave Leake:

varying degrees of that, though, so they might say that as long as it's within the practiced covenant of marriage, it doesn't matter who you marry, as long as it's within like, I've heard of some affirming churches being like that, like, but maybe it's leaving that,

Jeff Leake:

yeah, because as soon as you say that, you offend the rest of the group, right, right? So the group basically has this idea that any to any place, you draw a line or set a standard, you're creating an arbitrary outside form of authority. And that is a big part of the reason why there is a change in doctrine is that there's not a recognition of authority, that everyone is an authority for themselves and shows up as they are, and needs to be allowed to be themselves and be accepted as such, right, right? So those

Dave Leake:

kind of churches are like an inclusive, quote, unquote moral, you know, safe space, yeah.

Jeff Leake:

And so the now the Methodist Church, the historic Methodist Church and the global Methodist Church has separated, has had a massive global division over this one thought, right? This one doctrinal question, and there have been that you have the affirming group and the non affirming group, or the affirming group and the and then what we call the biblical group that have separated from one another. And this is the divide that's happening across our country when it comes to worldview and religious perspective.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, it's sad. It's really sad to me. Yeah, to watch the split that's happening. I, yeah, when, when I, when I'm this is sort of a side note, but reading Revelation, you know, where Jesus talks in Revelation two and three about churches and he's, you know, holding them accountable for what the permitting and stuff. I'm sure this has to break God's heart to watch the splitting a part of our church on such a massive international, you know, global scale, yeah. But anyway, leaving global, coming back towards America for a second. So the what triggered this video again, is that there is a there is a new task force that President Trump has commissioned that's called the task force to eradicate anti Christian bias, and it's comprised of members of his cabinet and key government agencies. I'm reading this off of the White House right now. Let's say White house.gov they're going to review the activities of all departments and agencies to identify and eliminate anti Christian policies, practices or conduct. And so what the real Joe Smith was saying is that this is a power move. It's not really for Christians. It's for people that call those Christians that aren't really Christians, because Jesus would never do this. And then he says at the end, it's not just about politics. It's blasphemy, okay, so, which I think is the main thing that I was like, What? What do you mean by blasphemy? Like,

Unknown:

yeah, so what's our definition? We get, what is blasphemy? Dave,

Dave Leake:

let's see. I'm gonna just google this really quick, because I it's better to have a. Yeah, better to have an articulate definition. Okay? Blasphemy is defined as the actor offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred, sacred things. So you can blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. You know it's, it's like calling, calling God evil. It's blasphemy. Is, is direct. You know, what's the right word? It's derogatory comments towards something holy, sacred, but especially God, I think, is what blasphemy is. So the idea of an anti, anti religious bias, Task Force, religious bias, or anti, let me see anti. Was it say anti Christian bias?

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, okay, it blasphemy. So this is where I think, I think now we have to broaden so if Trump put together an anti Islamophobic group to say if there, if there's any prejudice against Islam, we want to root it out and make sure that they have religious freedom. No one would object to that, or see that as Islam, Islamic nationalism, right? Or if there was an a group to root out anti semitism, which would be against Jewish people, I don't think anyone would object to that. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

or, or xenophobia in general, like people that are coming of immigrants or whatever, yeah. So,

Jeff Leake:

so an anti Christian task force to make sure that Christians have protections. I don't see that as Christian nationalism. I think that's a gross exaggeration, because Trump is not, technically, as far as we know, a Christian, and he's just simply saying, hey, it does appear, like under the Biden administration, that there were some moments where Christians were unnecessarily harassed, at the very least, if not imprisoned. Like examples, I saw this one clip. I wish I had it ready for us, but it was of a black lady who was being let out of a out of prison. She was pardoned by Trump because she had been arrested for protesting outside of an abortion clinic, and so she had, like, a one year old baby, and she'd been in prison for months and months and months, and Trump pardoned her, and she comes out of the prison cell, and she's like, runs to her husband and and they're like, saying, Thank You, Jesus, oh my goodness. And kissing one another, it was brought me to tears. Oh, my goodness. So there were some moments under the Biden administration where at least it was reported that FBI agents were infiltrating Catholic churches to see if they were talking about pro life things. In Great Britain, you have if you stand outside of an abortion clinic and pray silently, you can be arrested and imprisoned in Canada. I was driving with a pastor in Winnipeg, and he said, If I were to preach a biblical message about sexuality, I could be put in prison for that. So to say that it doesn't exist and it's nowhere is that's probably not true, whether there needs to be a whole task force to defend Christianity or not. That's a that's a question, I guess. And he then pitted it against certain marginalized groups are receiving attention and getting some rights, and this anti Christian task force is being put up because Christians are afraid that as LGBTQ plus people receive rights or get attention, that they're threatened by that, and so this is a response to that, and I think that this is a legitimate conversation that we have to have. So I'm actually a part of an initiative across the country to build bridges and being bring peace between different religious groups. It's called multi faith fam neighbors network, sorry, multi faith neighbors network, led led by an Imam, a Christian pastor and a Jewish rabbi. And I was on a conference call with them at one point in time where they actually talked about how in the West, there is this collision right now between civil rights and religious freedom. So there is this push for civil rights to be granted to LGBTQ plus people, and at some point that collides with religious freedom as to people who wouldn't necessarily agree with or align with those values. And so we have this collision that's happening of how far. We'll

Dave Leake:

explain that more in detail.

Unknown:

Okay, so let's say a right

Dave Leake:

for a gay couple to get married or to collides with religious organizations, freedom to only marry somebody by a Bible. Or there was

Jeff Leake:

a guy in Colorado who would not as as a Christian, would make a wedding cake for a couple that was getting married and wanted to have two dudes on the cake. And he said, I can't do that. And meantime, my Christian conscience, and so they sued him, and they he they won, and then he won a counter suit, and back and forth, it's gone as to, as to whether or not matter. Of religious conscience are legal right and and so how far into the whole will this push for civil rights push Christians, and how far should Christians be able to go without infringing on someone else's civil rights? This is kind of the debate back and forth in that particular issue, and this is happening all across the West. This is not just an American thing. This is, this is all across now. Pastor Joe White, who leads an affirming church, would never feel any pressure from this particular issue, because he agrees with popular culture,

Dave Leake:

right? So he's probably trying to, he's

Jeff Leake:

he's never going to be persecuted as a Christian, because his Christianity aligns with the LGBTQ push for civil rights, and so his Christian faith and really celebrated is celebrated exactly, but at whatever point you draw a line and you say, I think that's sin. I think that's unbiblical, again, we're not talking about so this is always tough whenever you're talking about this particular issue, if you find yourself in a same sex attracted position, or you're in an LGBTQ relationship, we're not we're not attacking you. We love you. God loves you. We we want nothing but the best for you. Now we're talking about societal issues really. We're not talking about personal ones and and so where he would align with the worldview of the LGBTQ community. His Christianity encompasses that.

Dave Leake:

So let me, let me take a side, side trail just to encompass what you said. I don't know that we have a lot of new listeners that are going to be but if you are joining us, because maybe you heard about this and you wanted to get involved, yeah, the line you're trying to walk is for us as Christians and as pastors, we need to be really clear about what the Bible says, so that if you are trying to follow Jesus, you're able to do what He commands, which is to submit fully to him on every matter you know, so that we actually he's leading us, and that includes sexuality and identity, right? And think, you know, Jesus addresses this all the time when he talks about sexual morality. Sexual morality at the

Jeff Leake:

same time, we also believe that every human being has dignity, and everyone should be treated with dignity, and no one should be targeted, made fun of, or made to feel like other simply because you are choosing to live a lifestyle that we would say doesn't align with scripture. But you're a part of this culture, you're part of this country, you should have the opportunity to be treated in a way that you don't feel diminished or attacked. Yes, so you can actually believe both that the Bible teaches certain things about sexuality and that every person should be treated with a level of love and dignity and and have certain civil rights available to them? Sure. Okay, so, so the two polarized parts of our culture, which have become highly politicized, do not allow room for the position I just described, and the what? What are we calling this side of Christianity, Dave, the Joe, white side of Christianity

Dave Leake:

we are. We are calling so if he's laboring

Jeff Leake:

the conservative side Christianity, yeah, if he's leaving the conservative side Christian issue, Christian nationalism, the side of Christianity that Joe would consider himself a part of would be probably progressive

Dave Leake:

Christianity, or you could just call it affirming Christianity. Okay, it's a little more clear. If we're just focusing on gender and sexuality affirming Christianity. Describe

Unknown:

that affirming Christianity? Yeah,

Dave Leake:

there. It's a branch of Christianity that that strongly questions traditional interpretations of Scripture and dogma, and they seek to understand Scripture and in the most inclusive way they see traditional interpretations of Scripture that are exclusive meaning to say, you know, gay marriage, for example, is a sin for Christians or or the fluid types of gender stuff that that's not congruent with a biblical worldview, they would say that that is old fashioned. It's It's bigoted, it's a misinterpretation of the heart of Jesus. Jesus would have been aligned with us now today. So affirming Christianity sort of sees parts of the Bible as non authoritative. They're sort of historical. They're outdated. We should actually understand the spirit of the law and not just the letter of the law itself. Yeah,

Jeff Leake:

and I would say it's not Christianity. It's more of a worldview and belief system called universalism, because most of these churches wouldn't see the cross as essential to salvation. They wouldn't see Jesus atonement as payment for sin and the only way to be right with God. They wouldn't understand the Bible as authoritative. So they're not leading people to a place of repentance through the cross of Jesus Christ into a place of personal salvation, they tend to see it as everybody is coming in, okay as they are and we are. Our job is to be a servant and to be loving and to be inclusive, so that everyone, regardless of their religious perspective or their sexual Orient. Temptation or their identification is equally accepted by God, and now we want to do community together. We would see the cross of Jesus Christ, repentance from sin and confession of Christ as Savior as central to what Christianity is. But let's just say Pastor Joe Smith is a Universalist under the label of Christianity. That doesn't mean I hate him, it just means it's different from my worldview. But just because I disagree with him, that doesn't make me a Christian nationalist, and I think that's or a bigot or a bigot. Yes, right? Sure. So there is this tendency for one side to lob grenades at the other side and say, look how toxic you are. When, in my opinion, anyone who's politicizing their faith to this degree is toxic.

Dave Leake:

You know, he almost the post that he had almost wasn't toxic. Yeah, it was really close, because I agree with a lot of what he said. But then, as he keeps going, it's, it's clearly such a political perspective, you know? So I think for us, what our primary concern is is take politics out of it. Let's just talk about, what does Jesus say? How do we live as Christians in the world that we live in? And then we want to address things like so, and we'll, maybe we should talk about this in a second. But so are Christians persecuted? What? How should we view this? You know, how should we feel about an anti discrimination against Christians Task Force all that?

Jeff Leake:

Actually, I'm, honestly, I'm happy about that. Yeah, me too. But I was gonna say that doesn't make me Christian nationalist. It's nice to know that the country I live in feels that I can practice my faith without being discriminated against. I like that. That doesn't mean I want to take someone else's rights from them, but I want to be able to live my faith without being put under pressure. So to put me who thinks that's a good idea in a category of Christian nationalism is unfair. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

yeah. I think, I think the big difference is Christian nationalists want dominance. They actually do primarily want power. And I guess I could understand how, from a certain perspective, you could use a task force like this as a club, as a club, yeah, yeah. Like a, not a not a social club, a threat, battering club, right? Yes, don't you dare, or else we're gonna crush you. Yeah? We'll come down anybody who does, and

Jeff Leake:

that would be a wrong use of power, absolutely. Yeah, no doubt. But

Dave Leake:

protecting Christian rights, well, I'm a Christian, yeah? Kind of what my rights. So let's

Jeff Leake:

just talk about if, and this is the other part that I agree with him, if I am persecuted for my following Jesus? To me, that's not a bad thing, necessarily. That just means I'm the real deal, that people see me as someone that's enough of a threat because I follow Jesus, because Jesus was persecuted too, and he said that we should expect that. But my response to that is not to try to gain power. So this never happens again. It's to be willing to die for people, right? It's to be willing to love. In fact, Jesus said, Rejoice in me glad, because great is your reward in heaven. However, if you sue me, please don't. But if you did over something I taught that you disagreed with, I would hire a lawyer, and I would seek to defend myself that you can persecute me, and I can still use the law to try to prevent undue suffering or something that seems unjust or unfair. So if the law is being enforced to protect religious freedom, that isn't necessarily a bad response to persecution, that's just simply living in a society that's governed by laws and and and courts and using the system to make sure that your faith has the space to be practiced in in in its uh fullness, without persecution. So the fact that we live in a society of laws should, should, you know, Muslims should feel this way. Bud should feel this way. Atheists should feel this way, that whatever your belief system, you should use the protections of the law to protect your ability to practice your religion freely. And our hope would be that every nation on earth would do everything within its power to protect religious freedom for anyone that's sure being persecuted. The other thing, the

Dave Leake:

other thing about Christian nationalism, that's a nuanced take that we I know we talked about this in a whole episode, but it's like, so whereas Christian nationalists want everything to be a it's a Christian nation. And maybe they will, they would exclude a lot of groups. And maybe, maybe the worry would be they're gonna, you know, stomp on their rights for the sake of Christians having more of what they want. There, there is this weird middle ground where it's like but it's a good thing to have Bible believing Christians in place of influence, like, if we want a more just society, sure we want a more Jesus.

Jeff Leake:

Well, I think Joe would see himself as an extension of Christianity. I think he would and trying to use his voice for things that he believed. So he would see inclusion. As a Christian principle, and he's using his voice for that. Okay, so I think that we should, we shouldn't be silenced in the public square at the same time. We should want protections for people who are in minority groups. Yeah, right. So I think those two things can happen simultaneously, and that's, that's the challenge now, evidently, there's a documentary that's out. We didn't, don't have time to go into this one that is sort of a, what you would call a progressive Christianity attack on Christian nationalism called God and country. I will definitely watch this later. And as as is a par for the course with partisan pieces, right? This is a partisan production to attack Republican slash conservative Christians. I would I would say there are probably some partisan documentaries that attack left slash progressive Christians, sure. And here's how you can tell a partisan, someone who speaks out of their Christian perspective, but only ever addresses the concerns they have with one side of the political aisle is not speaking prophetically. They're speaking in a partisan fashion. Sure, if your critique only critiques the left or only critiques the right, then you've been captured by the culture war, and you are more aligned with a political party with a desire for power than you are in trying to represent the values of the kingdom of God. When I hear someone who's willing to speak to both sides of the equation that isn't owned and captured by one or the other. To me, that's a voice that I would tend to listen to. So I guess here's one pastoral comment, listen. Be careful who you listen to. Don't let yourself be swallowed by partisanism. And there is this almost sense of superiority that partisans have over their opponents. On both sides of the equation, there's sort of a moral superiority, like we are the be all and end all, and you're the devil. And I think that's also a very dangerous position to stake out. And so I think the real Joe White is probably a partisan definitely, even though he's brought out some things that we would look at and say, true, true, true, true. I'm not sure about that. I totally disagree with that, right? He's coming in from a very partisan perspective.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, I it's just such a tricky this whole thing is such a tricky topic to me, because I do understand the heart of what he's going for, yeah. And I want those same things. Like, I want anybody to be able to walk into our churches and feel loved and included, like, regardless of what they look like, regardless as to, yeah, you know what labels they're using for themselves. But I also want to be able to be a place that is being faithful to what Jesus is asking of us. And I feel like there's so much I don't know, obfuscation, right? Is the word describe so much muddying of the waters. There's so much pressure on okay, even like us, every time we have one of these discussions, there's this, what can we say? What should we say? What should we don't want to use certain labels, because it'll throw a whole group into a frenzy because they're like, What do you mean by that? Yeah, like, and I get that. I know that's the world that we live in. I realize you're never gonna make everybody happy, but I would love to be as representative of the inclusive heart of everybody can come to the cross type of heart that I think Joe was trying to have, yet at the same time being as crystal clear, to not avoid passage of scripture that are controversial, well, ultimately,

Jeff Leake:

pleasing God. Yeah, like Jesus has opinions on things. And I want everyone to feel welcome, but I also want the Holy Spirit to feel welcome. Yeah, exactly. So at some point I can't just compromise what I know the Scripture teaches on things, because in my desire to include everybody, I may, I may not being be faithful to who God is and what and what he's the way that he's challenged us to live our lives. Yeah, and and so this is the, I think this is the tension in every generation. It just happens to be this. This tension is brought to the surface. Okay, way more

Dave Leake:

so I haven't, I have a thought of where we can go with this whole, this whole conversation. So my question, and on a practice we've

Unknown:

covered quite a bit so far, but yes, take us further.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So my sort of question revolves around. So I'll start with, where do we go from here? In this sense, I was just thinking about this as we're sitting across each other. So this is we, think we started in 2019, so we're in our sixth year right now, I guess, something like that, and we start. Before COVID, and then COVID Hit in the middle of our first year of our podcast, and all this, and the level of like topics that we've addressed definitely escalated. There was like, a certain level. It's like, let's not even, let's not even go anywhere near this. And then I feel like it's just like, okay, more and more things are clear. We're figuring out how to have public discussions about very highly sensitive, volatile topics, I guess my question, where do we go from here? So I don't agree with Joe's the real Joe White. Is that his name? I don't agree with his Smith, not Joe White. Joe White, yeah, he's a good friend.

Unknown:

We love Joe.

Dave Leake:

Real Joe Smith, okay, I think I said Joe White earlier, too. Whoops. Joe Smith, okay, anyway, I don't agree with his worldview. I don't agree with his perspective. I don't agree with his view on the Bible. But he brings up this point, Christians are being perceived in one of a number of ways. There's all these church splits and stuff. So as Christians, and probably more specifically as pastoral leaders. I guess my question and thought is, how do we how do we talk about these kinds of things? So forget just the anti discriminatory against Christian Task Force. Yeah, as people that should be concerned about the way that Christians are being represented, which I think is Joe's primary concern like, where do we go from here? I used to, I don't feel like to me, we can stay at this level of some things are pulpit level discussions. Some things are one on one discussions. Because, do you ever hear that, uh, you know, Marilyn Manson is,

Unknown:

he's a rock and roll guy? Yeah, that

Dave Leake:

he's really creepy. Yeah, he's old now it's, yeah, he was like, when I was growing up, Marilyn Minson was, like, a big thing, like, they're saying sort of satanic music, yeah, very creepy. He said, he said some quote a long time ago, and I'm going to totally butcher it, but he was saying something like, you know, parents make, make sure you're, you know, having real conversation with your kids. Because if you're not teaching them I'm, I am the one that's going to be like, they're going to be listening to what I'm saying. And I think he was sort of like tongue in cheek saying that, yeah, but it's like, there's always going to be like, so whether or not we say something the other side, meaning that is opposed to certain Christian ideas or

Jeff Leake:

or just a couple years ago, there was this spoof song that uh, LGBTQ choir sang in San Francisco, and they said it was a joke, but the whole song was, Don't worry about your objections to us, because we'll convert your children. The whole song was, we're gonna we're gonna go after your kids, and we're gonna teach them what we believe, and it'll be too late before you know it. And then they took the song down because they didn't want it to be so aggressive, but it, but listen, it does. It does appear like there is a worldview collision between what we would call, um, what, what was the thing we both preached about this weekend simultaneously, impressive individualism, expressive individualism, which is a version of paganism, which says that sexuality and identity have no root in objective or biblical realities. Wait,

Dave Leake:

wait, wait to be clear. You're talking about something different. Okay, okay, please be clear. So expressive individualism, the idea is, the way our culture tends to think is that each person is their own individual, and the way to find fulfillment is to understand yourself better. It's to figure out your own truth. It's to reject external source of authority. You're your own authority, right? Which

Jeff Leake:

then leads to, it does? It can lead to the modern version of paganism.

Dave Leake:

But there, okay, there. There is a there. I'm only partially pushing back a little bit just because, like, if you're, if you take personality tests, the Enneagram, Myers, Briggs, that's a form of expressive individualism, if you're trying to understand how, God, you know, you take those gifts tests. Yeah, that's an expression of self. So the idea like, it's not all bad, but if you, if you fully delve into the primary purpose of life, or way to find happiness, is to discover me, to have my esteem be as high as possible, to know what I like, adult like, to accept myself because I'm enough, that leads to a sort of self worshiping paganism. We talked about that we're self worshiping pagans. That one thing that Nathaniel said, well, our

Jeff Leake:

last podcast episode was about self love, of the danger of that, right, right? Which is, I guess, what we're talking about. So keep going. Well,

Dave Leake:

yeah, so, well, I don't know where you're going with that. I was just defining the term, oh,

Jeff Leake:

so socialism. So there is a collision between that worldview and what we would call historic Christianity, right? Yeah. And so one says, Be yourself, find yourself, love yourself. The other one says, die to yourself. Live for Jesus. Put God first. Put God at the center live under his authority. So one says we need to tear down all structures of authority because they're oppressive to us, and the other says we need to uphold biblical and godly authority because they're the basis for a healthy life,

Dave Leake:

by the way, can I? Can I read the email I sent you? Yeah, go ahead. So because I You're preaching about it. This coming weekend, which it'll be the past Sunday by the time this comes out, right? And I preached about this this past weekend. Hilarious, that it was just random. It's not like we're talking about this at dinner. It just kind of came up, okay, but I was just searching this, and I think AI actually wrote this definition here. So take it with an AI grain of salt, but I think it's pretty accurate for we're so we're talking about expressive individualism. It emphasizes self expression and the idea that people should be free to discover and express their true selves. It's based on the idea that people are defined by their inner feelings and desires. So key tenant self expression, the purpose of life, is to express your inner self to the world. Self discovery, people should look within to discover their deepest desires and longing. Authenticity. When I got to this point, I was like, oh, yeah, this is it. That's the most overused word right now. Authenticity. People should be true to themselves and follow their hearts. Self authority. People are the ultimate authority in their own lives. Self definition. People should not be constrained by traditional ideologies or external influences, and then it goes on to have implications. So what does this mean? Practically, people should always behave in ways that are consistent with their inner feelings. People should associate with others who affirm their identity. People should not be judged by others for expressing their true selves, and people should be tolerant of others self defined quests for individual freedom. Okay?

Jeff Leake:

That is the religion of popular culture. It is exactly that is not Christianity.

Dave Leake:

It's really not and it's actually opposed to Christianity to a lot of ways. So

Jeff Leake:

just walk through a couple and give me the Christian counter to it. Okay, self

Dave Leake:

expression, the purpose of life is to is, is to express your inner self to the world. What would Jesus say? The purpose of life is to become like Jesus and less like your inner self. Yeah, okay. Give me this. Another one. Okay, um, self discovery. People should look within to discover their deepest desires and longings. What would we say? People should look to the Word of God to discover God's desires and longings for them. Keep going. Okay? Authenticity. People should be true to themselves and follow their hearts. People should the Christian version is people should not trust their hearts and should use an external compass like the Word of God to help

Jeff Leake:

God and direct that they have to be true to God's expectations. I guess we're

Dave Leake:

talking about authenticity. Doesn't mean we should be a fake version of ourselves, but we should realize that our hearts, our hearts, are not the truest indicator of who we're called to be. That's all I'm trying to say. Self authority. People the ultimate authority. Easy, definitely not true. You know, God's the ultimate authority. Self definition. People should not be constrained by traditional ideologies or external influences, whereas the Christian worldview is people should 100% constrain themselves. Yeah, submit

Jeff Leake:

to God's and submit, submit to authority, submit to one another in marriage. Like submission is a key core doctrine. It is

Dave Leake:

and it's dying to yourself. So this is all about like, letting yourself flourish, finding the part of yourself that is most true to you, letting it be cultivated and letting it grow and blossom into the beautiful version of you that you're supposed to be. But Christianity says

Jeff Leake:

you're not as damaged, yeah, and you need to be born again, right by the Holy Spirit's work in your life, to recreate you into the image of Christ. So the

Dave Leake:

flawed version of you is actually very toxic, and what you need to do is to submit that to die a death like Jesus did, to be recreated, as you just said, and actually to allow God to shape you into His image, yes, and not to be shaped in your own image, right? So

Jeff Leake:

these two world views are incongruent. They are and the popular culture and progressive side of Christianity, even though I would call it universalism, teaches these tenets, yeah. And conservative Christians, I guess you would say, or maybe better said, biblical Christians teach the tenants that we just presented to you as submitted to Christ and His Word and His purpose for your life, dying to yourself. And then there's the Christian nationalists who are more concerned about America than they are about any of this. Yeah, right. And so I don't appreciate being lumped in just because I believe in biblical authority with people who are into political power. I think that's unfair, right? But I'm clearly not a Universalist, sure, even though I love people who are diff differ from me, and in maybe even practice or believe something about their sexuality or their orientation that I would biblically disagree with, I absolutely want to love, serve and care for be friends with People who are different from me, right? Imams and rabbis and Buddhists and like, I want to have relationship with everybody

Dave Leake:

and immigrants and people who are, you know, going through a gender discovery. That doesn't

Jeff Leake:

mean my desire for to be inclusive, that I'm gonna now subscribe to critical theory, sure, and to want to pull down every existing power structure to. Establish a Marxist reality in the world, which is oftentimes the undertones of the progressive, progressive Christian almost. You can hear it in Joe Smith's tone, like, this is just the majority culture, right? When he used that phrase, I thought critical theory, right? Yeah, this is the majority culture that's using their power to oppress minority groups, and we as Christians need to tear down the power structures,

Dave Leake:

because you just didn't

Jeff Leake:

want power anyway. So give it away, right? But it's his. Isn't just about I want to serve everybody his his objective. So he says Christianity's Christian nationalist. Wants to power up on everybody. Progressive Christians often want to tear down power, yeah, and neither one of those are Jesus's mindset. Jesus didn't come down to tear anybody's power down, right? He came to bring about a new reality, which is the kingdom of

Dave Leake:

God. So I just, I've been in this sermon series for a few weeks now where we're studying the book of Daniel, and it's, it's actually on this. So my question is, where do we go from here? How do we how do we interface with the world, like being clear, but also being accepting of anybody that wants to explore Christianity, that wants to come and see Jesus, like we want to be a place where anybody can come in absolutely hear the Gospel,

Jeff Leake:

and even if they don't receive Jesus. We want them to be a place where they feel loved

Dave Leake:

and cared for. So there's this in the book of Daniel. The setting of the story is because of how evil the nation of Israel was, the people of God, how many times they rejected Him, He delivers them into captivity, into the hands, initially, of the Assyrians, who then get conquered by the Babylonians. And so all of Israel is living there for a period of 70 years. And the idea of my sermon series I've been talking about is like, Daniel, I don't know about him specifically, but, but a whole generation, they're born in Babylon, and it's, how are they going to live as God's people in a fallen kingdom? So my idea was, you know, for us, we also are born in spiritual Babylon. But when you come to Jesus, you're reborn into the kingdom of God. So how do we distinguish and differentiate what is culture and what is the kingdom? And how are they opposed? Because the movement of Christianity for the last 20 years has been like, look, Christians are normal. We're not weird. We don't do all, you know. We don't dress different, like we have lights and smoke. We have guitars like, you know, I know pop culture references. I listen to the same rappers that you do. It's like, that sort of a thing. But I think that sort of can blend to make this syncretistic, as we've talked about this, this blended version of Christianity and culture, but we probably have to separate them.

Jeff Leake:

So now you're saying we've done enough blending. Now we need to differentiate.

Dave Leake:

Now we don't want to be we don't want to be holier than thou, we don't want to be morally superior or better or judgmental, but we do need to be like, not everything in culture is fine, like culture is not neutral. And I think the way that even a lot of churches, the way we talk about cultures, of culture and pop culture, is neutral. A lot of it, okay,

Jeff Leake:

well, the Christian nationalists will be, we're against culture. We're attacking culture, right? We want to dominate culture. The progressive Christian is be like, we just need to relax, and culture is not really that bad, and basically it's the same thing as what we believe. And you're

Dave Leake:

taking, you're taking this anti Christian stuff too seriously, yeah, Jesus wouldn't have cared. Yeah, right.

Jeff Leake:

And, but you're saying somewhere in the middle is we're not railing against culture, and we're not blending into it. What we are doing is we are,

Dave Leake:

well, so, so when they're in captivity. Jeremiah, actually, he's a prophet. He instructs them pray for Babylon, that it would flourish, because if they flourish, you're going to prosper as well. So like, the model we get for living as God's people in a fallen Kingdom is, like, do your best to acclimate. Not acclimate, isn't accept their culture. But like, flourish as much as you can, while you're here, ask God to bless you. Represent God's people. Daniel, where you can

Jeff Leake:

work with culture. Work with culture, yeah? Where you need to speak to it, because it's not correct. Speak to it, yeah? Where you need to engage with their

Dave Leake:

purity. Yeah. Daniel, one is all about how he's not gonna they there's pressure to eat the king's food, to break the kosher laws that would, you know, violate a covenant with God. And he's like, he appeals even on pain of death, like, Please don't make me eat this food. And they don't. God gives them favor. It's a perfect parallel, yeah, to what we live in now.

Jeff Leake:

Okay, so here's what's so, so difficult. So I appreciate we'll go back to where we started with Dave Sure, Tammy 's question on Facebook. So I know Tammy has been serving God for a long time. So maybe she's a bad example of this particular point, but you got a brand new person that just recently came to Christ, and they don't know much about the Bible or biblical truth, and they live in a in a world that's got this. I mean, we're pastors, and we're trying to make sense of the political turmoil and the back and forth and posts on social media. And I think, like, like, we just. Listen to Joe, Joe Smith, and we present. I agree with part of that. I don't agree with part of it. But if you're, if you're just newly being discipled as a Christian, right? How in the world? Like, what a challenging time, yeah, I think in some ways, it should force you, if you really want to follow Christ, to ask the question, what do I really believe? What Does the Bible Really Teach? And who do I want to look to to help me to work this out totally because if you just so I think this, like casual Christians, you're going to get eaten up, like there is so much pressure that if you're just trying to coast through life and hope that Jesus gives you a better existence. This is not that world anymore. You want to know,

Dave Leake:

if you want to know what's a perfect illustration this point, yeah, one of the trendiest things in the Christian world on social media right now, Catholicism, by far, because it's so clear. Yeah? I mean, it is so so, there's a history, there's rules, yeah, high church, liturgical movements. And I don't think it's as much because people are attracted to tradition. They're attracted to certain clarity, yeah, clarity, clarity. It's like, oh, we know what's Christian and what's not and we know what's being asked. And I think there's a hunger and an appetite like, Okay, you're you're saying this,

Unknown:

but like, what? What do you really mean here? Yes,

Dave Leake:

yes. And I feel that, like it's, I think it's, it's probably even a heavier weight on the Gen Z, and the ones that come out gonna but there's a huge conversion right now. I mean, there's kids in our youth group right now that are sort of converting to COVID, because I'll

Jeff Leake:

tell you what the blah of universal progressive Christianity is just blah. There's just, if you have a version of faith that has no stated true convictions, it's just. It's just,

Dave Leake:

or they're the exact same as what the culture says. Yeah, why would you need to go to church? It's everywhere. Yeah? Social justice, and it's not that all those things are against the gospel, but when they are put on a pedestal like this, they're elevated above Jesus. Yeah, right, because that's not what he teaches in terms of the order of priority, like, justice is a priority to God, but the way that Justice gets elevated, justice

Jeff Leake:

isn't bigger than God Exactly.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly, and they're often tied to political parties. So I don't know if we, I mean, maybe we did. Where do we go from here? Like, obviously, we're talking about rooting yourself in a church that's going to be clear about what the Bible says and finding a pure version of Christianity. But it's in terms of, like, how, well,

Jeff Leake:

I think, I think, honestly, Ark about this is a big reason why the podcast has picked up momentum, and we have more listeners, and we feel like even more devoted to the purpose of this podcast, because it's here we have these discussions, but you're actually saying, if the discussions only stay on a podcast, then we're probably not doing our job. They have to make their way into weekend messages, which is why both of us are preaching on expressive individuals, that's right. And so, I mean, it is working its way into every aspect of who we are. Whereas, I think five years ago, pandemic pre pandemic moments, by the way, we're March 20 today, the pandemic actually started five years ago last week.

Dave Leake:

Wow, was it the 15th or something? Yeah, I think it was a 15.

Jeff Leake:

Anyway, if you were to take me back as a pastoral leader to pre March, 15, 2020, I was pastoring way different than I am now, yeah, and I have so many regrets about how I was pastoring that, oh, geez, because the world had become different, and I didn't know it until pandemic hit. Yeah, how so? Well, I didn't realize how polarized it was. I mean, I knew a little bit. I didn't realize how much syncretism was in the church. I didn't realize how much superficiality, Christian, superficial Christianity, Christianity was there. I didn't realize how much I had left unanswered questions on the table in my preaching ministry. I mean, there was just so much that I just avoided because I thought I don't want to talk about that, because that might offend somebody not purposely trying to soft pedal things just like, like you said, some conversations are better done one on one than in a in a public forum. I now realize that's not true, and I talk about everything you do, and I'm not doing my job if I'm not talking about everything, because people are depending on me to provide them with guidance based upon the word of God and my pastoral experience as to where they should go. So I'm I feel like we're so much better, I agree, at leading people now than we were before, which I think positions us to see a greater move of God, because we've gotten out of the surface issues, and we've gotten into some real depth. Agreed, and I still long for the days where the conflict reduces. Yeah, I think we even said that a couple weeks ago. Maybe the conflicts reducing, I don't think it has a little bit

Dave Leake:

maybe, in some ways, maybe,

Jeff Leake:

but maybe that's longing for the wrong thing, because maybe this societal pressure is actually driving people to dive into better answers than what we had before.

Dave Leake:

So can I give you some, some of my thoughts about where we go from here. So because I've been studying Daniel so much, so I think there's a few things I see from there. So the the way that So Jeremiah encouraged them to pray for their culture, even though it's fallen, pray for them to flourish. And we see sort of that heart represented in the interactions that Daniel and some of the elevated Hebrew exiles who get put into political power, how they interact with the rulers? So Daniel respectfully comes to the authority above him and is like, Hey, this is going to break my conscience. Like, can I be given the special exemption? And God gives them favor, and they flourish because of that. Then Daniel, several times confronts King Nebuchadnezzar, like he does with his dream in Daniel two, and then in Daniel four, he gets brought back in to interpret the dream, another dream about a huge tree that God said he's going to cut it down and make him, make the king go mad for seven years for seeing himself as a god. And he's like, I wish this was your enemies. I wish this was anybody but you. But you know, maybe God will still stay his judgment eternal. Talk about speaking truth to power, huh? Yeah, if you repent of your sin and stop, stop violating the poor and those so it's you're basically saying

Jeff Leake:

we have to learn to live in a wildly pagan culture that has very negative views of people who believe in Biblical Christianity, but to act in a way that's shrewd and wise and influential, rather than just going to to into a political war. I'll give you a great example to this. You'll you'll like this example. Dave, so we're both, we're both European football soccer fans, right? Our team is primarily, yeah, yeah. We're our team is Chelsea and but there was a guy that used to be a part of Chelsea Mark goo, you, yeah, you, oh, that's our No wait, mate. So he is the defensive back for Crystal Palace. And oh,

Dave Leake:

it's, it's way he Harry. He's an

Jeff Leake:

African. He his dad is a pastor, okay? It has become a trend in European soccer that during pride month, every captain of the team has to wear it on. So captains were an armband anyway, yeah, but they have to wear a rainbow armband, which basically is standing for LGBTQ. So Mark from Crystal Palace, right? I'll just call him mark. Was he was faced with the decision, what do I do? Do I not wear the arm band? Do I Do I take a stand by saying, I'm not going to wear this these colors? Instead, what he decided to do is he wore the arm band with LGBTQ colors, and he wrote on top of it a magic marker. Jesus loves you now his statement about his faith, even though he wore the armband, Drew intense fire, like people were saying he should be kicked off the team. He shouldn't allow to be cat, be able to be captain. He shouldn't be allowed to play in the Premier League. So this is what we would call Christian persecution. All. He didn't actually take the colors off. He just simply stated, which is actually a very inclusive thing to say, Jesus loves you, right? And he took his stand, and actually nothing happened to him, and it was covered wide, widely. It was like a Daniel move, like he found a way in a difficult situation, to represent his faith without being

Dave Leake:

hateful, yeah, beautiful, yeah. Well, I think so. I think everything you're saying is exactly what I'm trying to get across. It's like, okay, Daniel would have been pro Babylon. He wanted them to thrive, right? And then pro Persia, once Persia takes over. So he's like, I want the success of this nation. I'm on behalf of God. I'm trying to win this fallen King Nebuchadnezzar. To him. He's like, representing God Almighty to him. So I think, like us without compromise, without Yeah, maintaining purity, being very clear on what he believes, yet,

Unknown:

like, like, not from an anti business, yes, yes. And

Dave Leake:

then he's differentiated several times in the lion's den story and Daniel sex,

Jeff Leake:

he's clearly different, but so, but he was still persecuted for it, because he was persecuted thrown into a lion's den where the three guys you know were were thrown into the fiery furnace. So, so it's both, and it is right. You can be, you can handle this with precision, and yet still be persecuted. Yes, right. So

Dave Leake:

unless the anti discriminatory against Christianity. Well,

Unknown:

Daniel would have wanted that. Where was President Trump back then to protect Daniel, right

Dave Leake:

or Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, yeah, but Jesus, if

Jeff Leake:

he hadn't been there, we wouldn't be telling their story today true, because there are some times when you need to be persecuted because it actually. Lee proves God's point that he's he's bigger. Yeah.

Dave Leake:

So I think, I think that the day and age we live in now is always going to have these kinds of tensions, unless we see a massive revival and a new great awakening, which is what I'm still believing and praying for. But I think we have to be willing to like be seen as bigots, if what a big it is is someone that disagrees with,

Jeff Leake:

you know, something that's not biblical. Yes, call me names if you want right, come at me, sue me. Try to put me in jail. I'm not going to change my convictions.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, yeah. That is the world we live in, yep. And so we

Jeff Leake:

just pray for Pastor Joe Smith, that God will bless him. And again, our desire is nothing to diminish who he is. We're just simply using his public comments to have a conversation. And thank you, Tammy, for suggesting this. And if we could address something interesting to you, just tag me on your Facebook post, because

Dave Leake:

I guess you'll see it. Yeah, I'm not on social, but we'll get it passed along through my through my 60 year old dad, who's still more in tune with culture than me. All right, hey, well, we appreciate it as always. Thank you for joining in with us. And as you said, you know, if you're on YouTube, you can always leave us a comment, or maybe you're watching this on another platform where you can leave a comment, we would love to hear. We have to say, think some podcast platforms let you comment now on that. So you want to leave us a comment, we would love to see that you can like and subscribe on YouTube, subscribe on Spotify, or Apple or whatever, share it on social media. And as always, if you leave us a five star review, it takes you a second. You just got to go down at our page, click on the five star, write something small.

Jeff Leake:

The reason for that is it just helps to put the word out about our podcast and help other people through it.

Dave Leake:

It really does, and we would really appreciate it. So once again, thanks for joining us. We'll see you guys again next time you.