Allison Park Leadership Podcast
A podcast where we have culture-creating conversations.
The world today is too complicated and messy for Christians to avoid tackling the difficult questions.
Hosted by Pastor Jeff Leake and his son Dave Leake, the Allison Park Leadership Podcast is a series of conversations designed to help Christians navigate challenging topics in our faith and culture today.
Allison Park Leadership Podcast
Does Everything Happen for a Reason? Predestination vs Free Will
Does everything happen for a reason? This age-old question sparks intense debate among Christians.
Join Pastors Dave and Jeff as they navigate the complex theological tensions between God's sovereignty and human free will.
Discover how these opposing views impact our understanding of suffering, prayer, and the purpose of our lives. With personal stories and pastoral wisdom, they unpack this divisive topic in a way that brings comfort, clarity, and a renewed confidence in God's goodness.
Whether you lean towards Calvinism or Arminianism, this conversation will challenge your assumptions and deepen your faith.
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Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
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In today's episode, we're having a conversation about the question, does everything happen for a reason? What is God's role in the world when it comes to sovereignty? Does God predestin Everything? What's the role of free will? Does free will even exist? Does God ordain for everything that happens? Or what part do we have to play in this if you'd like to hear more, tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have our culture greeting conversations. My
Jeff Leake:name is Dave and my name is Jeff, and we're glad you joined us for today's episode. You had a weird pause there, like you weren't sure. Is this a podcast
Unknown:I forgot for a second, yeah. So
Jeff Leake:do we have any reviews for anybody? Any shout shout outs before
Dave Leake:we do reviews, but we do want to give gratitude and thank you to those who have been listening for a while and for and as always, you can help us a number of ways. As you're listening, if you want to like and subscribe on YouTube, you can subscribe on any podcast platform. You can leave us a five star review if your if your platform has that available, and if you're on Apple podcasts, we can see your name. So if you leave us a five star review, we will give you a special shout out to say thank you for being a part of the community in general. Thanks for joining. We're glad you're here, and we want to
Jeff Leake:give a big shout out to our producer, Matt Smith, who has really upped our game. I mean, we have the new studio that we've been in for a little while. We've been using the clips the last couple episodes, which is really cool. The the little mini clips that we put out on Tiktok and Instagram and and such have really improved. And so I just love the fact that our product is getting better. And we are now concluding, what is this? The end of our fourth season. We go into Season Five year, fifth year. So we're getting ready to head into a brand new year. So again, thanks for being a part of our podcast audience. We appreciate you. Five
Dave Leake:years is a long time.
Jeff Leake:It is a lot of episodes. First episode was
Dave Leake:in November of 2019, 2019, so it's been five years now. Wow,
Jeff Leake:amazing. All right, so what are we talking about today? Dave,
Dave Leake:well, we should say, if you're listening to this, as it's being released, Happy Thanksgiving. You know that just happened for us. It's a few days before Thanksgiving, and Merry Christmas in advance, because we're almost there, crazy. I wish we could show Matt C, C, 3p, O, Christmas droid. It's over there in the background. Maybe we'll get that for the next episode. Just get people in the mood. Okay, so today we wanted to talk about, we want to talk about God's sovereignty, meaning the control that God has over our lives, the world, actions, things like that. And we wanted to maybe sort of center the conversation around a phrase that gets kicked around, at least in TV shows. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:a lot it is. It's a common response to a from a lot of people in life to when things that are happening in our life that aren't ideal, people often say everything happens for a reason. Yeah. So you'll see this in a TV show, in a movie, like, hey, you know it's okay. I know they've just broke up with you, but everything happens for a reason. Or it
Dave Leake:does feel like a TV show phrase, like a Hallmark movie, like the Christmas Prince or something. It's like, oh, good thing I dropped my shoe. Like, like, like, a, like, a weird western movie. It's not that it's weird, but serendipity, right? Like, oh, we had this book and he found it in the stack at the library. By the way, that's one
Jeff Leake:of my favorite Christmas movies, actually. Is it Christmas? Well, it's set in Christmas. It's really a rom com, okay? It's a rom com that I completely disagree with the premise of, but I thought was really an enjoyable movie back 2000
Dave Leake:whatever it was. Yeah. Anyway, so now, now that we know Jeff's favorite rom com, yeah. So, so I guess the question is, does everything happen for a reason there? Obviously there's a non Christian way to look at, does everything happen for a reason? But then, from even a Christian perspective, I think that's a it's a question that not all Christians would agree with. Does everything happen for reason? Is God? Is God in control of all things? You know, I
Jeff Leake:think actually, this is one of those phrases, Dave, where a lot of people might even think that this is in the Bible, everything happens for a reason. It's one of these. It's one of these statements, like God helps those who help themselves, or what cleanliness is like next to godliness? Well, nobody
Dave Leake:thinks that's in the Bible. I think you'd be surprised whenever Jesus said cleanliness is next to godliness after washing the disciples feet. Actually
Jeff Leake:think that in our culture, there is probably a lower level of biblical literacy. And so a lot of these truism statements that are said out there, I think a lot of times people might assume that they are about Bible phrases. But at least people might think that everything happens for a reason is a is a scriptural concept, right? Because there are certain verses that sort of intimate, that like the one of the most quoted, one of the most often favorite verses in the Bible is Romans, chapter eight, verse 28 and God works all things together for good, for those who love him and are called according to His purpose, and so that that almost sounds like a parallel concept to everything happens for a reason, right? God's going to work everything out. I think that's what people often mean when they say this. By the way, God's going to work it out. It may not seem good now, but not everything that's bad right now is going to end up bad, like something good is going. Come out of this. You have to keep believing that. A lot of times, people on TV shows will say the universe has its way of working things out, like as if there is some fatalistic force in the universe that's always working on your behalf to be right. Happy
Dave Leake:personified universe. Thank you universe. So
Jeff Leake:you know, I know it's I know you feel bad right now. I know you just lost your job. I I know that didn't come through for you, but everything happens for a reason, something out there, if you just keep thinking positive thoughts, you'll manifest a better future for yourself. That's that's like the flow of thinking around this particular statement, sure that, I guess, links into a larger theological worldview, which is called Calvinism, which really highly emphasizes the idea that God is in control of all things, and that everything in your life is kind of orchestrated to accomplish his purpose, to to occur in the world. And so as we talked earlier, Dave, there's some hesitation, I guess, in addressing this particular thought, because, well,
Dave Leake:it's probably the most debated topic in Christian and recent Christian history, really, at least among Protestants. Yeah, I'd say, so, okay,
Jeff Leake:I'd say, so explain. But to talk about that a little bit.
Dave Leake:Um, well, there are, there are two opposing theological views of the sovereignty of God, and we're going to need to define this in greater detail. But the idea that God's in control, that he's all powerful, all knowing, you know, omnipresent. He's everywhere, all at once. And so to what degree does God orchestrate things in the world? There's sort of two opposing world views. The one is Calvinism, which is that, especially if it's full, there's like five points. But if you're a five point Calvinist, it's that God orchestrates everything you know, down to the detail and the things that seem like they were bad, we won't understand until Heaven, but everything is for the glory of God, and then the opposite. Let's
Jeff Leake:slow down for a moment. So Calvinism is a worldview, theological worldview, that is credited to a guy named John Calvin who lived in the 1500s was a part of the Protestant Reformation era, and wrote his, I guess the big, huge volumes on this idea of the five points, which is, it's the acronym is tulip. I'll never remember all five off the off the top of my head.
Dave Leake:I'm never gonna miss one, but total depravity. Oh, here we go. Forgot the second one right away. Here. Yeah, so here, I'll tell you right now. It is okay, total depravity. Oh, yeah, that's always forgot to get unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perspirant to the saints. We maybe we'll talk about what each one of those means in a little bit, but I'm still setting up the frame of the, you know, the polar if
Jeff Leake:they want to follow along, and you're near a computer, you can look up tulip, Calvinism to look you'll see those five things. Okay, so, so, okay, so Calvinism started again. What a lot of people would say it started in the scriptures, but Calvin and Calvin
Dave Leake:perspective, yeah, right, with John Calvin, yeah. The underlying thing we're talking about specifically is called determinism, and it's the idea that God determines everything that happens for His glory. Right. The other side is the theological term that's called Arminianism, based from a viewpoint of a guy named Jacobus Arminian, or Arminius, excuse me, who was born in the in the 1500s as well. This is, this is sort of what you'd hear termed a lot around free will, that God made people with free will. So the opposite side, Arminianism, opposite, opposite of Calvinism, sort of believes that that people have the choice of whether or not to resist God. So with Calvinism, God, God predetermines everything. Everybody's pre everybody that is saved or that's not saved is predestined to be that way before they were born. People that get saved, God chose them, they're the elect. People that aren't saved, God has not chosen them, and they're just going to be given over to the judgment they deserve for their sin, because they're not.
Jeff Leake:Some people were created for hell. Others were created for heaven. Some were created to be away from God. Some created to be this is, I'm not saying this is what I believe. Yeah, yeah, articulate. Yeah, exactly. And the election is God gets to choose who's saved, period, and then limited atonement, His death on the cross is really only for those who
Dave Leake:it was 100 the blood of Jesus that was spilled was 100% effective at saving everybody he meant to save, and none of it is wasted on people that didn't choose to accept it. The opposite side. It has to be i You almost have to contrast Calvinism to fully catch our many, yeah, the opposite side. So it's not that people can choose salvation like even even Armenians believe that the only way somebody can get saved is by the Holy Spirit first drawing you and awakening you to have the opportunity to come to Jesus and and receive a salvation. But Armenians free will. People would believe that every human has the ability to resist God. Yeah, you can say no and or agree with him, right? And
Jeff Leake:the spoiler is that that would be our position, okay, okay, now, you were hesitant for us to talk about this on the podcast, because it's
Dave Leake:like the most hotly debated topic. I mean, if you go to any any college, especially any theological Institute, it is if you have opposing sides, people are intense about this. Yes, and specifically, a lot of Calvinist preachers tend to be very aggressively anti Armenian, like I remember whenever I was in college, and you know, kind of watching some of the big names. I won't mention them, but you if you know this at all, you know who they are. And just like ridiculing like that. You could believe anything different. And you know, I went to center Bible college, which was a, you know, at the time, a Bible college in the Assemblies of God in Missouri. And I mean, even there, like the position of the Assemblies of God is Arminian. But even there, it was hotly debated Calvinism versus Arminianism. And almost,
Jeff Leake:when you aren't toeing the Calvinistic line, there is almost a disdain for the other position, because it's perceived to be an insult to God to question his sovereignty. Yes. So the person arguing for Calvinism is trying to defend God's honor, yes, and
Dave Leake:and the person who's arguing for Arminianism is it's trying to depend God or defend God's character, His goodness. Yeah, right. I mean, they're those are the two big attributes, the love and the goodness of God versus the sovereignty of God, right? His glory, yeah. So again, maybe we should stick away from Calvinism and arminism and say determinism and free will, yeah, because those are probably easier to understand. So,
Jeff Leake:as we do with a lot of topics that are potentially controversial. It was actually funny for me, Dave, to think you said, I don't know, should we talk about this particular concept? Because this could be the most tumultuous. We're going to get a lot of comments, you know, from this particular thing. Yet, we've talked about pride, pronouns of the people God loves. We've talked about Christian nationalism. We talked about Marxist right? Yeah. It's sort of like, Is this really the topic to not talk about for the to avoid conflict? You're right, but, but so how can I say this If you disagree with us, please understand we are not trying to diminish God's glory, nor are we trying to provoke anybody or trick anybody. That's true for all of the conversations that we have. If you've been a listener to the podcast, you probably know that second thing is our role in all of these conversations is pastoral. So what we're trying to do is help so the person who's had something bad in their life happen, and someone comes along and says to them, everything happens for a reason. We want to. We want to unpack that particular moment, because as pastors, we want to help you discover meaning and comfort and confidence in the difficult moments of your life and to understand and frame them with a proper theological understanding, so that you can lean into God's grace in those moments and not feel abandoned by him, which Sometimes people feel like, when, when bad things occur. So if we're already triggering you, we're sorry. We're trying to,
Dave Leake:let me give one more clarification. Okay, I don't think, I don't think we're claiming to be like theologian experts on, yeah, on predestination and free will here. I think we are offering a pastoral take. If you want to get a really in depth, like, if you're if you want to nerd out about this, there's actually a co written pair of books that is called for Calvinism and against Calvinism. For, for Calvinism is written by Michael Horton, and against Calvinism is written by Roger Olson. I don't know Roger Olson. There are two friends that share differing viewpoints, and they write like a it's not a series, it's just two books, but that contrast their opinions in a very healthy
Jeff Leake:with the book recommendations. Come on. Have you read them? Yeah, yeah. They're okay. Are they? Are they, as someone who hasn't read them? Are they thick theological books? Okay? They are okay. So
Dave Leake:this isn't casual reading, okay? But if you're like, if you want to really dive into it, because this is important to you, those are good ones to kind of get both perspectives good so, so let's start with, do you want to start by defining God's sovereignty? I'll say this if we were talking about why this is so hotly debated, in my humble opinion, it's because Romans nine. Romans chapter nine is a such an explicitly seems to be clear text for the side of Calvinism, of predestination, you know, determinism, excuse me, it's almost spelled out like word for word and its chapter. And then you have a counter argument in your head, and then Paul addresses that counter argument, you know, as you go through them and argument. You know, as you go through them, it's nine, but the counter argument is, in my view, almost the rest of the entire Bible. The outlook and perspective is not determinism. So there's a heavy there's heavily arguments for. Both that are cited from the Bible. This is not like an extra biblical thing. This is we can pick verses, and that's why it's such a Yeah. I mean this, it's like
Jeff Leake:any other biblical tension. Yeah, right, right. When you have a biblical tension, you have some verses that say one thing and another verse that seems to say the other thing, and you're like, Okay, somewhere in here, this tension is a full reflection of the reality that's out there. But the tension is not necessarily a contradiction, unless you unless you hold only to one side of it to such a degree that you eliminate the idea that there's the possibility for something else going on. Sure, and so this is not to say we live in the middle. It's just to say that we have to get comfortable with the fact comfortable with the fact that some things are intention that we may never understand completely, because we're talking about the God of all creation. Sure, we're talking about God's ability and character and nature and capacity and and so some things probably should escape us, like we we can't explain everything about who God is and how he functions. That's not an excuse to just give up. It just means that, I think there is some some ability to navigate this, that we've gotta grab both of these concepts as we do so. So do you want to start what? What
Dave Leake:does it mean that God is sovereign? Okay,
Jeff Leake:so I have this stupid joke that's going on about in my head. So, so did you hear about the Calvinist that fell down the stairs? When he got to the bottom, he got up and he said, glad to get that over with. So the idea is I had no role in the stumble. It just was predetermined I was going to fall down the stairs. So now that it's over, okay, right? So if you take it to its logical extreme, it almost seems to indicate that nothing I decide, nothing I say, Nothing I do matters, that I'm just almost robot robotic, that God has predetermined everything about what I say where I live, what happens to me, how I respond in certain situations, and so basically, I'm just a participant in God's expressed plan that has no influence by my choices. I don't know if that was the question you asked. No. So
Dave Leake:like from your perspective, what is it? What does it mean that God's sovereign? What's
Jeff Leake:God's sovereign? Yeah, I'm sorry I got distracted by my so it means that God needs no one stands on nothing, that he's completely independent, that he is completely self sufficient in and of himself, and that he has the capacity to do and be whatever he needs to be without any limitations. Is that, yeah,
Dave Leake:okay, yeah. I think it means that God's all powerful. Yeah, it's all of
Jeff Leake:his attributes together, right? All knowing, all powerful, unchanging, every everywhere, present but standing outside of everything, so that he's not dependent on anything, and therefore he has capacity to do whatever he needs to do, because he is completely the only self sufficient being in the
Dave Leake:universe. And I think there is an element that is that God is in control, yeah, like God. God's sovereignty doesn't mean that he's just all powerful, but doesn't really do anything with it. He's not a removed, agnostic God who created the world set into motion now is absent, letting everything go to its own ends. There is a level of God's sovereignty, which is that he is orchestrating things. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:he's involved in the world. Yeah. He is got strategy for our lives and for the world we live in. He is always working to accomplish his purposes. Nothing can really stand against him when he starts to move, because he's has no limits to his capacity to function, right? Yeah. So, so
Dave Leake:then the tension, man, I'm not I'm not sure exactly where to go like, do I want to go into Romans nine? I guess so. The question, does everything happen for a reason? Right? If God is sovereign, to what degree is he involved in His sovereignty, in directing the events of the world this? Does he like, you know, your joke about falling down the stairs? Does he direct every accident, every mistake? Does he direct the toothpaste that you buy, does he direct only the big things is it just the moment of giving your life to Jesus? Does he direct sin? Is God the author of sin, like so we talked about the two, you know, the two tension points that Calvinism, that determinism defends. The power of God is sovereignty, that he receives all glory, he's determining all of it. The opposite side is the goodness. So if God is sovereign over everything, is he using every evil thing for His glory, like our tsunamis, our genocide, our race. So now we have to go
Jeff Leake:back to the beginning, right, right, right. So I don't think we should dive into Romans chapter nine before we come. Or some beginning, beginning idea. So help me? Okay, go here, right? So God created the world, and according to His sovereign will and purpose, it was perfect. But then he limited himself. He chose to limit himself. It's not that God is limited, it's that he chose to limit himself to the will and decision of Adam and Eve, and he gave Adam and Eve a choice. He said to them, if you choose to eat from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you're going to die. And they did. And he did not override their decision. He allowed for their decision to occur, and then their decision caused the curse to come upon the world that God had put under their stewardship and care. So everything that happens now on planet Earth is as a result of God creating a world that allows for human free will to affect the outcomes. So God does not override human free will. He limits himself by the will and choice of the people who live here. Yeah, and so that means some things that happen on planet Earth happen because human beings have exercised their free will to do evil. And some things happen on planet Earth because when human beings exercise their free will to do evil, they caused a curse to come upon the planet we live in, which now has caused, you know, there is an upheaval that comes with that as a result of all those things. I don't know if that I think that's good. So, so a sovereign God has the ability to limit himself in the areas where he chooses to. And so, I think that's
Dave Leake:so, so let, let's talk about like one of the ways that we know that God limited himself so. So when we read Ephesians chapter six, it talks about spiritual warfare. And in Ephesians 610 we have the armor of God, but on the full armor of God, seeking sin, against the devil schemes. And in verse 12, it says, For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual force of evil in the heavenly realms. So I think it's interesting that the devil's forces are described as as rulers, authorities and the powers of this dark world, right? I guess from our perspective, our theological perspective, you know, when God created people with choice, either to eat of the fruit or not, and, you know, he gave them as the image bearers. You know, I can't remember where I read this thing. This is Tim Mackey from the Bible product. He talks about how image bearer, the image of God, is referencing that we are the image in the sense of, like a rulership icon. So statues in ancient, you know, the ancient world, they would make a statue of a king, and that was a symbol of his rulership and authority in an area, okay? And so as the image of God we he, Tim says it's actually better to say we are the imagers of God. We are the representation of his rulership on Earth. But when man fell by sinning, they actually handed over some of the authority that they had over all the things of the earth to name and to and to steward over to the devil, which is why in Ephesians six, we talk about the different powers. There's rulers like, how can there be powers and rulers that are evil, not because God appointed them, but because the the authority that was given to man was relinquished at the fall of man in Genesis, chapter three. So
Jeff Leake:let's so let's make it a simple illustration. I own a car. I hand you the keys. I say, take care of this for me while I'm gone. You give it to somebody else and they wreck it. Okay, I still have sovereign authority over my car, but because I chose to give it, give you permission to utilize it, and you gave it to somebody else, there was a consequence that came from that, I think, that the world is has been wrecked, so to speak, because God gave the keys to us, and we shared those keys with the powers of darkness, but through our agreement to do what's wrong, and the result of that has been all of the evil we see present in the world, right, right? It doesn't take away God's sovereignty over the universe. It just means that God made choices to allow for free will to exist, and the moment he let free will exist, there was the potential for things to go sideways. And what I look at is, I say, and God saw that, and he saw the all of the mess that's going on in the world, and he decided to strategically redeem us from this mess. So then God didn't just abandon the world, and said, I'm done with you. You guys are made a mess. I don't want anything to do with you. We're going to take Earth, we'll put it over here in the universe, and everything else I'll take care of on my own. Care of on my own. God said, I'm going to actually come into this world. I'm going to enter this world in the person of Jesus, and I'm going to work to redeem and restore the people who've been broken in this world. And the eventual return of Jesus Christ is this idea, One day Jesus is going to come back, and he's going to. Claim and redeem what we may made a mess of so that it can come perfectly under his sovereign and complete rule from now until eternity. And so this, this little, you know, interval that will in between the Garden of Eden and heaven, right? Is the problem interval, because something created this mess. Yeah right. So one the deterministic view would be to say God created this mess so that in the redemption of humanity, he would receive maximum glory.
Unknown:Yeah right.
Jeff Leake:The free will arminianist argument would say God did not create this mess. He gave us free will to choose what we would do with what he gave us, and we created this mess. Yeah, and God, in His sovereignty, is working overtime to do everything in his power to redeem us from the mess that we created. Right, right and and so I hold to that second view, which is that God is using his sovereign capacity sure to enter our world and redeem us from the things that that sin and Satan has tried to destroy. Yeah, the
Dave Leake:key, the key idea here is that God is not limited by anything except for what he decides. So God can limit himself. Yeah, nothing can limit God. But God can say, Well, I'm not going to do that because I'm setting rules in place that I'm going to abide by until the end, and he's still, I mean, God still reaches hand and does things and supersedes things all the time. But largely the world that we live in is a as a series of consequences from humans decision to give in to evil and redefine good and evil for themselves, which
Jeff Leake:is what makes so many things about the Bible makes sense, right? It does so, like, for instance, prayer, okay? If, if you believe in determinism, what
Dave Leake:is the purpose for prayer to bring God glory? Okay? Yes,
Jeff Leake:very general,
Dave Leake:right, but purpose of evangelism, to bring God glory, purpose of I mean everything, right? But
Jeff Leake:prayer in its essence is, is my agreeing with God's promises? Sure. So Second Corinthians, chapter one, verse 19 and 20, says, For no matter how many promises God has made, they are yes in Christ and we say, amen to the glory of God. So the idea of God has already said yes to so many promises that he wants to have happen in your life, but those promises don't get fully released until you say, Amen, I agree. So be it. And then our amening, what God has said yes to you, brings into the world the answers that we so desperately need. So God has an intended will his promise that doesn't get fully realized until we say, Yes, God, I want it in my life. It's like Gabriel shows up to Mary and says, there's going to be a conception inside your womb. And this one's going to be the Son of God you're going to be. You've been chosen for something amazing. Mary says, may it be unto me even as you said. And when she says this, Jesus is conceived within her womb. That's the idea, the intended will of God, and my will come into alignment with God's will. And when that happens, that's where God begins to do in the world His sovereign, redemptive work. Yeah? Well, I
Dave Leake:mean, there's we, there's so many perspectives in Scripture, yeah? Like James, James 516 where it says, The prayer of righteous man is powerful and effective. What's what, what is effective about something that's totally unnecessary and already predetermined, if it's if it's gonna happen, regardless as to whether you pray or not, what's effective about prayer? I mean, I'm there's, like, there's, if you take the viewpoint of Calvinism, there's, there's creative ways to explain these kinds of things. But even if you look at like, stories the Old Testament. I mean, God's mind is changed by Abraham and Moses. Yeah, you know God's gonna destroy Sodom, right?
Jeff Leake:They pray. And he's, they say, God, you know, Abraham says, What if there's 40 righteous people? And he says, Well, if there's 40, then I won't right? What about 30? What about 20? And then he gets down to 10. Yeah, right. And so Abraham and God are having a conversation in prayer that affects God's decision of how he's going to work redemptively, and he actually tells
Dave Leake:Abraham what his decision is, yeah, I'm going to destroy this. Okay, so
Jeff Leake:it's being done in real time, and it's an interactive thing, and our will and God will is being mixed together even salvation. David says, Unless you confess with your mouth of Jesus Lord and believe in your heart God that raises from the dead, you can't be saved. Yeah. So salvation involves our choice to confess Jesus as Lord. So all of this is a mix of the sovereign will of God and my will coming in alignment with God's will so that his purpose can prevail in my life. And the here's the reality. There are some things that God wants to do in your life today that won't actually be fully released in you unless you come into submission to an alignment with what His purpose is. Yeah. So this is why we pray, this is why we obey, this is why we trust. This is why we give. This is why we preach the gospel. It's all about us coming. Into an alignment with God's will that allows for His purpose, His redemptive purpose. So that almost sounds like to the determinist. They say, Oh, so you get to determine what God does and doesn't do. Not, not actually, is that God has willed so many things that he wants to be released and what gets unlocked or unpacked in our world about God's good intention shows up because we come into agreement with it. And that I know that. I know that to a determinist, that sounds like, well, you're you're really inflating humanity's role in this whole thing. I'm not inflating. I think that's just the free will that God's given to us. Yeah, that allows for our partnership. It's an amazing thing to think that my agreement with God has a role in prayers or promises being released into the world as I pray. Yeah,
Dave Leake:there's a couple other things that I want to hit on, and I think we eventually want to
Jeff Leake:get back to, does everything happen for a reason? Yeah,
Dave Leake:this is a bigger conversation, but let a few things that one of the really common perspectives and examples that gets shared a lot is about how impossible love is if it's predetermined. You know what I mean? Like, if, if, if something has no choice but to express affection, is it really love? You know it like if you wind up a toy to say, I love you, and it doesn't do it unless you do it. It's actually not a it's not really love, because love isn't love until it's a choice. It's choosing something above other things. That's actually what love So God's
Jeff Leake:will is to be in a love relationship with you, yeah, but he can't have that will and purpose realized unless you love him back like he can do everything he can do to love you. But if you don't respond and love him back, then there's a limitation there, right? Yeah, same thing with any human relationship. We probably all have been in a situation where we love somebody and they didn't love us back, yeah. And so that very real pain is something that the God of the universe feels when we choose to reject him, right, which is mind blowing to me, yeah, that a god of that God of this magnitude and holiness and ability and capacity has made himself vulnerable. Yeah? To us, yeah. It's kind of beautiful. In a way. It is pink. So, so let me tell a personal story. Did you have another one you wanted to dive on? I have a way to make this, sadly, personal. Oh, as far as the question,
Dave Leake:yeah, as far as this whole conversation has a reason, you know, I have more. I have more. Okay, because we're talking still about the sovereignty of God, and I think there's a so we're, I mean, we got time, we still got, we got there's more to hit on this side, the consequences of determinism, and if God is sovereign, making everything happen, right? So, one of the, one of the I've even heard this used self, you know, in a self deprecating way by people that are from the Calvinist movements. But, you know, you hear the phrase the frozen chosen, right? They're elect by God. They're Christians, but they don't move. They don't especially do the work of evangelism, that much, and part of the purpose is, well, if everybody is going to be saved, whether we do anything or not, why is there really a need? Everybody is saved, but everybody, everybody who want, who God determines to be saved, will be saved regardless as to what, whether I do it or not. Like, it's like, well, it would affect everything. Why should I pray? Sure. Why? Should I? Why should I even work to understand this theological point of view like so this is always one of these sort of weird things, like someone is arguing to convince me of determinism, and I and my response once I remember saying is, well, maybe God has determined for me to think this way,
Jeff Leake:right? Right. So, I mean, you could use that on anything like whatever is just, is que sera sera, whatever will be, will be, I mean, it's just gonna, you know, the world is in the frame that it is it to completely remove Free Will from the conversation almost makes things feel illogical. It
Dave Leake:really does, yeah, and everything gets relegated to the mysteries of God. Yeah, you know, like, well, we should, we should do this because we're commanded to, and if we love God, and if God's if we're the elect, then we should do what God's asked us to do, and it brings in more glory. And why would you not want to partner with what God wants you to do if it's going to bring him more glory? But the the impetus in the Bible, like in whereas this in Romans 10, where Paul says, you know, 1014, how? How then can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in one who that they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. There's like a thrust and an impetus with the Great Commission and with X, you know, one eight to actually or not. One eight, excuse me, one five, I think, is what it is, where it talks about being witnesses and and going into all the world. And there's a there's an impetus and a force. And it's more than just a, in my view, it's more than just a do this. It's going to happen regardless. This, yeah.
Jeff Leake:I mean, if you really take it to its its logical end, let's say there's a tragic hurricane or tsunami. So I was gonna go there next, actually, yeah. And so people are suffering. They're hungry, they have no clean water, their their children are dying for lack of nourishment. If you say, well, that's just part of God's sovereign plan for the earth, and this is going to bring him ultimate glory, and we shouldn't do anything about it, because we weren't chosen to be in that hurricane. We were chosen to not experiencing it. Well, then, then you have no mission, you have no compassion, you have no energy to do good work, because all of this is predetermined. When you realize that my choice in the world affects not just my life, but it affects the rest of the world. That I have a responsibility. One day, I'm going to stand before God and be judged by whether or not I actually did something with what I have, and that, you know, it almost could bring it into the Good Samaritan story, like the two people that walked on the side of the road that didn't stop and help the guy be like, Hey, that was just part of God's plan for his life to get beat up. But the dude that stops and uses his own resources to take care of somebody else, obviously they realize that my choices matter, right? So my choices matter for me. They matter for my family. They matter for the rest of the world. They matter for the condition of the world. And if everything is fatalistic, then there's no reason to act at all on things like this. And so I don't think, I don't think this stands, withstands the biblical test, or the logic test, either one of those, when you really get down to it. And then when you withstand the
Dave Leake:biblical test, if you view everything from the from the lens of Romans nine. It really could,
Jeff Leake:but you just read from Romans 10. And Romans 10 says something different.
Dave Leake:Well, in Romans, I was gonna say Romans eight, actually, is the lens from which you view Romans nine, in my opinion, which? So I want to get back to the hurricane thing. Can I just quickly read this? Because it popped into my brain, yeah. So, so there we go. Okay, where are we whoop. I just lost it. Okay, here we go. So, Romans, here we go. Yeah, Romans. Romans, eight. Let's start with 828. Okay, so read slow, okay, and we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. That's actually a big part of this question. Is everything happened for a reason. So So
Jeff Leake:people sometimes think that means God works everything to make me happy, that God works everything together so that I'll really like the outcome. But it means that that God has very specific purpose in mind that he is working everything together, even the things that aren't pleasant, even the things that are difficult, to accomplish his purpose for your good and to accomplish his for
Dave Leake:the good of those who love Him. And that's a big difference between the good of all the world, right? I mean, it is for the good of all the world. He
Jeff Leake:is working for that too, but his ultimate purpose is described in the next verse, right? And
Dave Leake:then so verse 29 says, For those, God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son that he might be the firstborn. This is Jesus among many brothers and sisters. Okay,
Jeff Leake:so there's these two big words there, foreknowledge. Yeah. I want
Dave Leake:to read verse 32 okay. It says, and those He predestined he also called those he called he also justified. Those justified. He glorified. But yeah, you're you're right, foreknowledge and predestination. So
Jeff Leake:God knows everything that will happen, but he doesn't predetermine everything that will happen. But he does predetermine certain things. Well, like, for instance, he predetermines that everything in my life will work to make me like Jesus, so that, so that I become according to the prototype of Christ's character and his nature, sure. And when I do, when he calls me to be that, then he justifies me and He glorifies me, I think is what you didn't find predestination, by the way. Okay, well, to determine something that will happen in advance, to determine what's going to happen advance, right? Yes, right. So God predetermined something for my life and for your life, because I said yes to Jesus, I said yes to the Gospel, right? God has predetermined that he is going to do everything in his power to make me like Christ. The the are many use everything in my life, right direction. But
Dave Leake:in terms of, in terms of salvation, being one of the elect, that God predetermines predestines to be a part of this chosen people, those who have been saved. The Arminian viewpoint would be based on Romans 829, for those that God foreknew, He also predestined, yes, so it says, Because almost it's like he God has foreknowledge of the choice you're going to make. For those that God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. So there are many of you would be, all of all of Romans nine, which talks about a lot of predestination is based off of God's foreknowledge and foresight of the free will choice that people would make. And those that God foreknew, He predestined, and those that He predestined he called, and those he called, etc. So
Jeff Leake:the John 316, verse, Whosoever. Believes in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life, whosoever means anyone. Jesus died for everybody. Yeah, His Atonement is not limited to a few, right, but God knows in advance those who will respond to the gospel, and he predestines that they will become like Christ, yeah, is, is how I read those sentences that we're studying together, real, yeah,
Dave Leake:well, I mean, even Second Peter, three nine, it says, instead, he's patient, patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Like God's there, and you gotta do some mental gymnastics, like, well, there's things that God wants, but those are different than what He wills, because God's actual will is that not everybody, but God wants, he wishes they could be, but it just doesn't aid his glory. And God's helping for ultimate purposes, his own glory and not it's like, I mean that to get there, it's like, it feels like you have to prioritize. Well, Roman science says this. So everything else we're gonna squeeze into this little box here to make it make sense.
Jeff Leake:And what you're saying, and this is what I believe, too, is that the whole of Scripture is this balance between God's sovereignty and our free will, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And then there's these, this, these certain verses in Romans nine, which we never really got to, which I think is okay, yeah,
Dave Leake:you can read it for yourself. You want to. It's, I mean, it's very intense, honestly, that
Jeff Leake:involve it. I guess it shows up on the sovereignty side. Yeah, a lot more. And for sure, talks
Dave Leake:about Jacob and Esau, and how God loved Jacob and Esau hated. And then it talks about, isn't it God's right to choose what he does with each individual person, and the quote that he's using there, and Paul quotes for Jacob, I loved Esau hated, is actually a quote from a prophecy about the nations of Israel and Edom, who were the descendants. It's
Jeff Leake:less about salvation and it's more about some other purposes God was trying to accomplish in the world.
Dave Leake:Yeah. And those are reflected of two nations. I mean, they were both evil, honestly, yeah. But I mean, Edom had really chosen to rebel against God, and in the terms of the prophecy it's due to their actions, is why that prophecy gets given that way. Anyway, I want to go back to what you were saying. As far as you were talking about tsunamis and earthquakes and tragedies. The other part of determinism that really does God injustice is that all the suffering in the world, like, I mean, these horrible things that happen to people are ultimately somehow used for the glory of God, and that that's what God wants. He wants for these broken bodies and these messed up lives and the trauma that happens. Because somehow we don't understand, but somehow it's gonna question God. There was, and I remember this happening. I remember looking into this happening. There was a, again, a famous Calvinist preacher, that after 911 happened, he got up and said, Well, this was for God's glory. And that God, this was God who did this. And, you know, even if it would have been with the dirty bomb, and millions of people would have been poisoned with gas, that would have been God's will too. It's all for God's glory. Like, we have to see the bigger picture. It's just like, Oh, come on. I think that's that is that is massively doing damage to the reputation of God who is is not willing for genocide and rape and all you know what I'm saying, in horrible disasters, like he can use everything for his glory, and he can bring good beauty out of the ashes, like Isaiah 61 says, but I don't believe for a second that the intent of the Bible is to make God the one who causes evil, so that he can break bring himself more glory. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:it's now we can start to get into the ministry portion, because that becomes intensely personal when you're talking about something just happened to you. Yeah? So the everything happens for a reason, is a is a platitude where we're trying to make sense of things that don't make sense. Exactly. Okay, so let's go real personal now, because this will take us into how do we navigate these waters when we're the one in the hurricane? Okay? So because I think a lot of times, people who see it from a deterministic view, almost, view God as a authority figure that we have to respect, but we'll never understand, who probably doesn't really know what I'm going through. But somehow it's all or
Dave Leake:does, but it's fine because you're like an ant compared to the glory that is God.
Jeff Leake:It's a kind of a hurtful perspective. It's very lonely. I don't know how you're not angry at God when, when? That's the idea of no right to
Dave Leake:be angry, but because you're dressed like so you're just trapped, you're a dirty, wretched sinner who's only given given grace, and which is true to an extent, yeah, but the the overarching narrative, I think, distorts the character of God.
Jeff Leake:Okay, so this is a very personal story, and some of you have heard me tell this before, but you know when, when? So we have five children, Dave's the oldest, and Jonathan is our youngest. Jonathan got was diagnosed with diabetes when he was 11, and you know, when all was going on in the hospital, we found that he was a diabetic. My sister's a diabetic. We kind of understood this. Jonathan was aware that he was he had just been. Diagnosed with a serious disease he got for the rest of his life, unless God healed him. And yet, while in the hospital, he was just, you know, there in the moment, like Children's Hospital here in Pittsburgh, he could play video games all day. He was watching movies. He was going down to the game room. It hadn't hit him yet. You know what I mean? Like, they were bringing in whatever food he wanted. He could have ice cream anytime he asked for it. Okay, so maybe it was the dietetic version, I don't know, but Okay, so we get home about two weeks later, we're sitting on the couch in my living room, and Jonathan looks over me at 11. He goes, Dad, why do you think this happened to me? And I was like, That is a penetrating question, and that is the question, why did this happen to me? So whatever it is that you're going through in your life right now, if you're listening to this, this is the question, why did this happen to me? Of all the people in the universe that this could happen, why me? Why did this happen to me? And I said, you know, Jonathan, I don't know. I don't answer that question, but there's a couple of things that I believe. And I said, first of all, it's not your fault. You didn't cause this. It's not like because you send somehow that God is punishing you. So number one, we never see God ever do that kind of a thing where to an 11 year old kid all of a sudden you're stricken with the disease. Okay? So second, it's not God's fault. God didn't create the world to have diabetes in it. He created the world to be the garden beat when we get to heaven, and His will is completely felt. There is no diabetes in heaven. But here we on in this world, and we live in a world that's filled with pain, filled with disease, filled with sickness. It's it's part of living in this world. But it's not your fault. I don't think it's my fault as your dad. I don't think it's God's fault. If we're going to blame anybody. We blame the devil because the devil is trying to destroy everything that is precious to God. But I don't know that God the devil even sent this directly on you. It's something that's happened in this era of history that we live, where so many things that happen in the world that are not God's will and purpose occur. And so we accept that it's there, and then we're going to do everything in our power to fight against evil and to align with God's will and to pray for healing until it comes. Now, I don't know that his 11 year old mind contained all that, but as his dad, that's how I framed it. So does everything happen for a reason? I don't think there was a redemptive reason for Jonathan to be given diabetes, sure, is God able to take John, Jonathan's diabetic condition and the impact that that has on his life, and sovereignly work in those situations to bring something good out of it. God didn't cause it, but God can use it. Yeah, God, God. God didn't send it, but God can work through it, right? He he isn't the one that struck you down or caused you to be abused, or, you know, had you experienced this horrific thing in your life? But God saw what the devil meant for evil, Genesis, 5020, and is able to turn it around and use it for good and for the accomplishment of his purpose on earth. So, does everything happened for a reason, no, but God can make something good happen out of it. So God can bring a reason out of it. But he didn't send it to you as a way to say, Okay, this is for My glory. Ultimately, we have to admit that, because God has limited himself to our free will, that he allows for things to happen, but just because he allowed it in general, because ultimately, for God to eliminate all pain, he'd have to, he'd have to start over, right? He have to destroy anyone who's wicked or selfish in any way. And that's, that's not the destination we're at until we get to, yeah, someday, and someday, that's what we're looking forward to. Um, so, so God isn't causing it all, although he does allow it, because he allows for the world to exist in the condition that it's in where most often His will is not being done. On Earth, we would look around, he would say, most of the things that are happening today on planet Earth are not the will of God. They're the will of the devil, or they're the will of sinful, selfish people,
Dave Leake:or they're the fallout of a broken world that's been
Jeff Leake:cursed by sin, exactly. But God is working in the midst of it all, in His sovereignty, in His foreknowledge, to be able to take our situations and bring something good out of it, if we surrender to Him, and when we agree with him and we stand with him, he's able to redeem the worst moments in our life and bring something good out on the other side. So, so not everything. Maybe we need to rephrase this thing. We say, everything happens for a reason, like we're part of some deterministic, fatalistic universe. No, but, but God is able to bring something good out of it. Does everything happen for reason? No, but
Dave Leake:God is God. I think God is able that he wants to bring good things. That's the point of Romans. 828, yeah, is to say that in all things, God works for the good of those who love Him, who but called according to His purpose. So whatever we've been through, whatever we will go through, God wants to bring Beauty from Ashes. You know, he wants to. He wants. To take what's happening and use it for His glory, and use it to make us look more like Jesus, and use it to refine our fire, our faith like gold that's tested by fire. You know what Peter says? So, yeah,
Jeff Leake:so some here's another example of when, when this phrase shows up. So, you know, there's a wide receiver in the end zone, and the quarterback hits him right in the hands, and he drops the pass, and they lose the game. And then later he says, Well, you know, everything happens for a reason. Well, no, you dropped that pass. But God, can bring something good out of that, even if you make a mistake, even if you mess up, even if you even if you don't do what you could have done. God is not limited in your choices, from, from, from the fatalistic idea that whatever you decide is what you get. He actually can take even our worst mistakes, even our worst mistakes, and bring something good out of it. Let's hold God so too. Yeah, that's, that's, that's exactly right. So it doesn't eliminate the fact that we make mistakes and do things that God would never want us to do. It doesn't make eliminate the idea that we have weaknesses, and sometimes our weaknesses show up. It doesn't eliminate the fact that the devil is trying to destroy us, or that other people do hurtful things to us, but it means that in the mess of all of that. God is able, in his sovereign capacity, to bring something good and purposeful and maximize whatever he can maximize out of that situation that we're walking through that's good. So what's the what's the new phrase? Not everything happens for a reason, but what I don't have a new phrase for you. Let's come up with one. We kind of need to summarize this. I just think Romans 828, is the best thing. So we would say we know that in all things, even in the things he didn't cause, even in the things he didn't send, even the things he didn't create, even the things you wish never happened, in all those things, God works for good for those who love him, not for your happiness, but for your good. He's going to bring something beneficial out for those who love him and are called according to His purpose. And his purpose, ultimately, is
Dave Leake:that we would be conformed to the image of the Sun, which are Romans 829, says, preach, so that you'll look more like Jesus, that you'll bring more of God's Kingdom down to earth as it is in heaven, and ultimately
Jeff Leake:that you'll give Him glory, which is where I think even the determinist one wants us to end up, right?
Dave Leake:Yeah. So, so absolutely, so Is God sovereign? Yes. Absolutely, 100% totally. Can he step in at any moment to change things and alter the course of history as he will? Absolutely, he can do whatever he wants, but because of his desire for a love relationship with people, he's limited himself to means of allowing people to make their own choices. And someday, one day, I'll set everything right. But even for the things that he doesn't directly cost, God uses all things to bring himself glory and for our benefit as well.
Jeff Leake:So for those we may have triggered, well,
Dave Leake:they're already in the comments, and if we did, even if you're not triggered, but you just want to leave us a comment about why we're wrong, feel free to leave comments there. Will answer you, yeah. Matt, formerly Calvinist, will be able to be the funniest face right now. I also want to just say, you know, there are so many people that I respect that have a Calvinist perspective. Yeah, most of the best scholars of the last few 100 years have been, have been Calvinist. Actually, it's funny, most philosophers who are Christians are Arminian, most because philosophy is how life actually works. But most prominent theologians have been Calvinist. It's a
Jeff Leake:theology is not how life actually works. Oh no, it's
Dave Leake:but, it's the study, but, but when it comes down to that, how does this make sense for you? It's like, oh, it's a mystery. Like, what? How does this actually work for you is what philosophy does. So like, when it's just the logic part, they're like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, you know. But anyway, I think we have to have a lot of respect, because there's some brilliant minds. Yeah, who are who come from the Calvinist tradition? A lot of church fathers did as well. And so this is not meant as any disrespect on people that come from a Calvinist perspective, but this is our take, especially as pastors who are influencing those in our congregation and those that are listening. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:and this is basically a representation. If you came to one of us and said, Pastor Jeff or Pastor Dave, this terrible thing just happened in my life, like I described, sitting on the couch with Jonathan, and you're wanting our pastoral answer to you know, why did God let this happen? You basically heard, heard our take on it may not be your fault, unless you did make a choice that blew up your life. It's not God's fault. It's not your parents fault. John, chapter nine, Jesus talks about this guy born blind, and that was the big debate. Who's at fault here? Is it God? Is it this man, or is it his parents? None of those things are, are the things? Watch this, yeah. He says, Well, what he actually says is, I'm the light of the world, and we live in a dark place, and while I'm here, we have to work to overturn the darkness. Yeah? Paraphrase, yeah. That's, that's where if we're gonna blame any. Buddy for why this happened in your life. Let's blame the devil. When we blame the devil, let's get busy to do everything we can do, to work with God in his sovereignty, to take this bad thing and turn it into something that God can use, and that that God can use, not just for your good and for His purpose, but to give the devil a black eye, so that more and more people find Jesus and the reality of His healing and his hope
Dave Leake:that's good, all right. Well, we appreciate you joining on in this holiday season to join this conversation as always. If you have topics you want us to cover, feel free to reach out to us through email or through comments, whatever you want to do, and let us know your thoughts. We would also so appreciate the Christmas gift from you of a five star recommendation, or, you know, share on social media, like and subscribe. Excuse me, anything that you want to do if you just want to use the charity from your heart to help us out as we spread the word, to try to share this resource, that would be extremely helpful. But hey, we hope you have a an amazing holiday season. God bless. We'll catch you guys next time you.