Allison Park Leadership Podcast

Life, Death, and Aging

• Jeff and Dave Leake • Season 5 • Episode 12

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How can you make sure you’re living with purpose and making a difference in the world, no matter what stage of life you’re in?

Jeff and Dave reflect on aging, goal-setting, and how to stay positive amidst life's many changes. 

Join us as we discuss why it’s so important to learn how to hear from God, maintain integrity, and overcome the challenges that come with getting older.

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Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
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@Dave.Leake

Dave Leake:

Hey everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have culture creating conversations. My name is Dave. I'm one of your hosts,

Jeff Leake:

and my name is Jeff, and we are father and son, and both on staff at Allison Park church. I'm the Lead Pastor, Dave, the campus pastor at our Northside campus. We're a multi site church as well, and basically we introduce ourselves every time, but we also do something else at the beginning of every episode, and that is, we give a big shout out to anyone who is joining us, if this is beneficial to you, and especially those who are willing to take the time to leave us five star reviews. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

yeah. It's a free way to help, help, to help us spread the word about who we are, what we're doing, and today I want to give a shout out to Bible study crew, whoever you are, thank you for your kind review. Thank you to everybody who's left a five star review on Spotify. That's where you listen. Unfortunately, we can't see your name, but we want to say a big thank you to you, and if you are willing, maybe you've been a listener for a little while, or maybe you're brand new and you want to engage in a free way that would help us out. If you could leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts, that would be amazing. So regardless, yeah, thanks for being here. I

Jeff Leake:

did talk with someone just recently, and I cannot remember your name. I talked to you after one of the services at Hampton, and you said, Man, I listened to one of your latest podcasts, and then all of a sudden, it kicked me to the beginning of your episodes. I don't know why, and so I went back and I listed to some episodes. You know, Dave, I didn't realize we actually started this in 2019 I always think that we started this in 2020 but actually our first episode was a November 4, 2019 so several months prior to the pandemic itself.

Dave Leake:

And so what a god timing thing, huh? Yeah. And then,

Jeff Leake:

you know, then we went into to the 2020 thing, and we and we, and we talked about a whole bunch of stuff during that era. And

Dave Leake:

then we had my terrible quality webcams for a while,

Jeff Leake:

yeah. And we were getting ready to upgrade the studio. So we've been in this one for a little while. We're going to upgrade the look and find ways, maybe to include some other voices in the future. So anyway, what are we talking about today? Dave,

Dave Leake:

so you recently had a Facebook post which, yes, sounds about right for what we're talking about. Your views of turning 60. So what better place to post it? On Facebook? Yeah, right. So, and you were talking about, you know, a number of things that you want to do moving forward. Yep. And, okay, so interesting little

Jeff Leake:

context. I just turned I've just flipped the calendar. I went from the 50s to the 60s. This I was born June 21 1964 and so I'm not really a big person to have personal parties, but the hams campus, where I'm typically preaching at, had a little celebration for me after each of the weekend services this past weekend, got a lot of well wishes. Of course, the big six, oh, is a big number. I forgot

Dave Leake:

to ask you. They gave you the gift of that, uh, Jeep camera, right?

Jeff Leake:

The stat though, the so the Hampton staff actually chipped in together and bought me a new radio console for my G Okay, because I have a backup camera too. I was broke. Well, yeah, so it'll, you know, it's one of those things where you can see where you're going, yeah, cool, huh? But it also was, yeah, oh, it's new stereo. Mostly, yeah, oh, very cool. So I really appreciated that. That's awesome. Big shout out to the Hampton campus, yeah, but yeah, the big six. Oh, that's a big birthday, I mean. So I'll just be honest, as we're getting started, this change from 50s to 60s mess with my head more than any other change this I didn't have as problem with turning 30. I turned 30, I was like, I was already the pastor at APC for four years. When I turned 30, I just felt like it made me legit, because I always got, like, people would say, How old are you? Like, you're doing what? So I was very young for for my responsibility. When I turned 40, it was okay midlife, but I think because I was carrying the weight of responsibility in my life, it wasn't that big of a deal. 50 was a thing. 55 was a thing. I just never thought I'd be 60. Uh

Dave Leake:

huh, right? So, like, never thought you'd live to be 60 or No, I

Jeff Leake:

thought I'd live. I didn't want to I didn't want to die. But the feeling was sort of like, I just never saw myself 60, like I could never, it was never in my imagination, when I thought about my future, did I think, oh, one day I'll be 60. I just never thought that. And people younger than you, Dave, in their 20s and younger, they think of people who are 60, is almost dead. And so here's the reaction I get. I'll tell people you're 60, wow. Would have never thought you were 60, which is a compliment. But what I can almost read into that is I never knew you were almost dead like because I mean 60 when you're when you're 1560, sounds like, Oh, my God, you're you're ancient. And like and there is a, I mean, let's just say I'm I don't have 60 more years left. If I did, it would be, I'd be one of the oldest persons to ever live, right? So I've lived more life than I'm going to live. And you look ahead and you can see at this stage of life, you don't get stronger. Doesn't matter how much you work out, how much you run, you don't get stronger in your 60s and 70s. You're now fighting Father Time, so to speak. And you're gonna, you're gonna experience some kind of physical decline, which, which is not fun to consider. So what I really had to do through this particular last couple of weeks, Dave, is to get to get prayed through, so that I had a healthy Holy Spirit, anointed, biblically informed perspective about my future, so that I don't live with dread, but I live in faith. And I think all of us, regardless of what's happening, we all go through transitions in life, right? We have transitions in age. Sure, we have transitions with our family. We have transitions with jobs. Sometimes relationships end, and you find yourself divorced or separated or widowed or as a widower. You know, grieving what? What has just changed in your life. And anytime you end up looking at your life and you feel like I was feeling about 60, it is really important that you get a God centered perspective on your future, so that you can see your life through the proper lenses. So we want to talk about a healthy perspective about the future. I think that's what we'll title this subtitle. My thoughts on being almost dead,

Dave Leake:

no, almost dead, do you?

Jeff Leake:

I'm just joking. My thoughts on being 60, right? Crazy,

Dave Leake:

I think so. I've always been kind of a I've always been somebody that thinks a lot about what I'll feel like at different points. Yeah, like I always like as a kid, I would always think about like, I'm sure everybody probably does this, but I think about, like, what I what my future me will think about how I think right now, like, Oh, I wonder what I'll think about myself at 15, when I'm 30, or what would be like to have a kid and like, the things that I'll like laugh like, I can't believe I thought that or did that, or thought that was cool. I don't think that was everybody at that age actually, because people, you always thought deep thoughts, Dave, people were, like, just like, living their own life and, like, going hard. And I would, I would be like, I

Jeff Leake:

think a lot of people are the opposite. They think I'll worry about it when I get there. Yeah, yeah. They don't think, I wonder what life will be like when I'm down the road. They think I'm gonna live today, I'll worry about that later.

Dave Leake:

I would think a lot. I seriously thought a lot about, I wonder if this is going to age? Well,

Jeff Leake:

yeah, that's probably, that's a wise thing to think though, will this age? Well, right? I mean, I think that's actually something really good to think about. That's

Dave Leake:

probably true, but I, I'm just trying to say I think I was in my head a lot as a young person, yeah, about what I do now and how, because here's, you know, here's, here's what it was. I remember seeing these videos of me as a kid, but I wasn't that young anymore, but I was I was old enough to be embarrassed about this, but I remember seeing these videos me as a kid just being, like, too goofy for my age, like a 10 year old, and I was, like, dancing like an idiot kind of a thing. And I'm like, What was I doing, Paris? Like, Why did I even because I even because I think it was like aunts and uncles and grandparents, like, goading me into doing something to be silly because it was funny for the camera, and then I would see him be like, Oh no. So I was trying to spare my 15 year old self from, like, future embarrassment. That's probably where it came from. But anyway, all this to say so I think I've always found it interesting to look forward ahead to where I'll be someday, and to imagine myself in somebody else's shoes. The last episode we did was on things that you would like to say to the future generations to pass on your wisdom, but I guess so today. Well,

Jeff Leake:

we that's how it started. What we actually talked about was one of the things that I think is true about our era, not just the next generation, which is this whole thing of the the hollow nature of virtue signaling and the need for in need for leadership. And, yeah, right, right. Okay, so, but

Dave Leake:

yeah. But so for today, I want to talk about what your your goals are, yeah. And then just do some reflection that maybe would help people that are not at 60 yet, or

Jeff Leake:

maybe just in any kind of transition, or at 60. And so there are actually we did two episodes, Dave in 2021 that are good episodes that tie into this particular topic. One is called How to Succeed in each decade of your life. Oh, yeah, that was good. And we talked through what you should be thinking about in your 20s, in your 30s and your 40s, 50s, 60s, so forth. That's one of my favorite episodes. That is actually, that was one of the most well listened to early episodes that we did. So that one we would refer you to, and, and so anyway, yeah, so I second one you're gonna say, Yeah, I'm so this. I just saw the one that popped up right? So far. Yeah, go ahead. So I'm not just talking my head off. Go ahead. And

Dave Leake:

I don't know I it, it feels like so for me, I'm 33 now, which I know is not, you know, old by any stretch of the imagination. But 30 was hard for me, because I was like, wow. Like, at least at the time, like, I'm closer to 40 than I am to 20 now. And you know, just it feels like you can feel time kind of going by. And just what I'm hearing you talk about 60, I'm like, that sounds kind of terrifying. Just like the last 27 years is like, wow. 27 years is not a forever time.

Jeff Leake:

That means I would have less time left on Earth than you have lived right now.

Dave Leake:

That's terrifying. It's terrifying for me too, you know I mean, but the

Jeff Leake:

reality is, if I get 27 more years, that's that's saying something, because very few people live to that length of time.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, James will be almost 30 by then. Yeah.

Jeff Leake:

So let's say I don't get my heart's desire and live to 87 let's say I died sooner than that. That means my runway on earth has got really short.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, that's terrifying. Well,

Jeff Leake:

it isn't, it isn't. So I guess this is what I can say. I feel like I've lived my life Well, I don't. I don't have a lot of regrets. Um, if God were to call me home today, I'm, I'm ready to go. I feel like I would hear a well done, good and faithful servant. I'm, I'm not intimidated by that. I said to melody the other day. I'm actually less afraid of dying than I am of aging, because the aging process is so unpredictable, you don't know how much of you, your your mind you keep, or your health that you keep and so, or your stamina that you keep, and so that's very uncertain to me. Dying is certain. I know it's going to happen. I know where I'm going. I'm totally confident in that moment. In fact, I look forward to it, in some ways, to the transition of being in in the presence of God and being able to celebrate so because I've lived my life in a way that I'm not ashamed. I'm not I'm not afraid of that shortening runway,

Dave Leake:

and I don't know which one I'm more afraid of, the aging or the death. I mean, because the thing is, it's not I would have said, like, when I was a little bit younger, that dying didn't really intimidate me at all, and I guess to some degree, it still doesn't, but like, having a young family that freaks me out. Oh,

Jeff Leake:

yeah. Oh, certainly. Well, that's why I'm in a different place than you. I don't have, I don't have dependence in the same way, sure, right. And my wife and I, Mel, we've now had 37 years of marriage together, and you know, I'm sure that I would miss her, and of course, I want to see my kids continue to do what God's called them to do, and my grandkids grow up. And I love to live to see my great grandkids all of that stuff. But I know that my life is in the hands of God, and if death were to come sooner than 87 I'm good with that. So not to get morbid on this conversation, let's

Dave Leake:

do this. I'll give thoughts on your first point too. Yeah, let's just do kind of a we'll react and process a little bit together. And then I want you to give reflections too, because I just think there's, it's a good platform to address, like, things that are uncomfortable for everybody to think about, regardless their decade. Yeah, like, I'm just talking to Josh about how he went out to copy with someone who's a just a few years older than him. And Josh went, he's talked about this publicly, but he went through this phase few years ago where he was just, I don't know what prompted it, but he got real, like, real, like, into thinking about his own mortality. And he was just like, you know, almost going through that, like, Lamentations from the Bible sort of phase. Like, everything is Ecclesiastes. Everything is meaningless, chasing after win, yeah. Like, what's, I'm gonna die at some point soon? So, like, what's the, what's the use anything? Like, he was like, going through this, and he was talking to this guy, and this guy was like, You mean, you thought about death all the time? The nurses, like, yeah, don't you ever? And he was like, never. Like, I never think about death. You know, well, actually,

Jeff Leake:

wisdom comes from thinking about death. That's, that's true, right? So, so what does Moses say? Psalm 9012 teach me to number my days, Aright, so that I might gain a heart of wisdom. Part of what I'm doing here at 60 Dave, is I'm trying to number my days, which some people find to be like, you're just going to nail it down to 27 or less. Yeah. That seems like, oh, I don't want to think about that. Actually, if you plan for your last years, however many they are, 4070, 10, whatever it is, you plan well. Financially, you plan well. From a family perspective, you plan well. Spiritually, you plan well. Product in terms of your productivity. So for me, thinking about my day. Days being numbered makes me live wiser. Yeah, and what does it say? I think in Ecclesiastes, it says it's actually better to go into the house of mourning than the house of partying, right? Because when you go into the house of mourning, if you're at a funeral, you actually get perspective, sure, whereas if you are partying, some partying, sometimes you you forget. I still don't like

Dave Leake:

it. I don't like feeling,

Jeff Leake:

you know, I think all that's what makes you feel like melancholy, yeah, but I feel melancholy at all. I feel joy. Well, I'm

Dave Leake:

glad for you. I, by the way, I have a thought for this, the title we call this life, death and aging. There you go like your little threes.

Jeff Leake:

I love that.

Dave Leake:

That's a good one. All right. Well, don't

Jeff Leake:

forget that

Dave Leake:

I won't Matt will hear this at some point, whatever point we are on the podcast, life, death and aging. Yeah. Okay, so let me give you my thoughts on one, then we'll keep going through there's a few more that you have here. You said I want to live these next decades, blessing others, not complaining about the world around me. I guess my question is this, I think recently, I found myself without even thinking about it, like, Sarah, kind of like, called me out for complaining about things that I wasn't even really thinking I was complaining about, like, uh, one that'd be really easy. It's just depending, depending on the evening. Man, sometimes it's because of having a toddler, sometimes it's because of other things, just due to work or lives or whatever. But I just, I wake up exhausted, and I'm like, Oh my goodness. And I had a stretch where I just felt tired every day. And Sarah's like, you're always talking about retired. I was like, it's like, quit complaining. And I'm like, Oh, she was singing in a harsh way. I think she was more just saying, it doesn't help you to, like, always talk about this. And I was sort of like, I guess it doesn't like, because I I didn't realize I was complaining, but I think I was kind of complaining, so I guess I'm well,

Jeff Leake:

your lips are like the thermometer of your soul. You find out what's going on inside by listening to what you're saying, yeah,

Dave Leake:

yeah. And that was a reflection of how I was feeling, yeah. Just very

Jeff Leake:

so what you're talking about all the time tells you what's happening inside your heart. And if you hear yourself talking about fatigue, and I can't take this anymore or whatever, it's a sign that you got some hard work to do, you need to sit down. Work on your perspective. Let the word of God speak into your situation. Consider maybe ways that you can create margin for yourself so you don't feel so tired all the time. Get a better balance, like, there's a time to step back and work on on a perspective about things, yeah, which is good. And let me just add for people who are this age, yeah. So I remember, this is probably 15 years ago. Now, I was in Nicaragua, and I happened to be in Nicaragua on a missions trip, but both my parents and Melody's parents, so my in laws, my mother and father in law, and my my mom and dad were all in the same vehicle together, and we were riding for a couple hours, and they found a lot of common ground, because they were all suffering from the same ailments. And so they were talking about how they're treating their diabetes. Both dads had that they were talking about joint pain. We probably spent 45 minutes on the ride comparing aches and pains. And I remember calling melody afterward. I'm like, I don't know what I did to deserve this like punishment, but the older I get, the more I find that when you're with people your own age, you do tend to go there instead to talk about, oh man, yeah, I gotta man, I gotta stretch every day like my muscles hurt here or there. Okay, there's some amount of that that's totally natural and fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging your physical struggles and sharing, you know, points about relief factor or vitamins you want to take, or stretches you're going through or whatever. I think that's just natural. But there's a difference between being obsessed with your problems in your pain, and acknowledging them, that they exist, being oppressed by the stresses of your life, where you're not really processing it well and being and being just aware that there's something that you know that's fatiguing, like, if James doesn't sleep one night and you wake up the next day and you say, I'm really tired, that's natural, sure, right? But then there's a mindset that can grow out of that if we're not careful. Yeah.

Dave Leake:

Well, yeah, I think, I think I was doing that, yeah. All right, I want to ask questions, but I'll save my questions for after you get five,

Jeff Leake:

number three, number three, I'm determined to keep learning and pushing to be my best. So here's a couple things. I'm trying to learn a new language. I'm almost 400 days on Duolingo learning Swahili. Mel and I ran the half marathon to commemorate our sixth 60th. My 60th to be able to, you know, push myself to be in shape. I'm talking to a nutritionist that was recommended by my health plan so that I can eat better, trying to read books. I don't want to ever think that I'm beyond learning just because I've lived a long time. So I want to keep. Staying sharp. I want to keep pushing towards new things. I don't want to become dull or say, been there, done that, and so that's that's another one of those things that I want to stay at, moving into the future. By the way, this is good for anybody. You should always be pushing yourself, because you're capable of more, to learn more and to sharpen yourself. What does Ecclesiastes say? I think it's chapter 10. When the AX is dull, more strength is needed. So if you stop to sharpen the AX, you go much further, much faster, just because you're working on your skill sets. Yeah, pause with that one or keep going.

Dave Leake:

You want to say something to people in Swahili.

Jeff Leake:

So the problem with Duolingo, are you unduly at all? I had been but not really. Okay, so it's like, it's like a it's like a game on your phone. Technically, yeah, is. It's really good for recognizing words. It's very challenging when it comes to sentence structure. Okay, so I, I'm struggling to put sentences together. If you, if you gave me, if you threw out a bunch of words, like Karibu, which is welcome, or quaheti, which is goodbye, like I know a ton of words now, but I can't actually construct them, Willis in sentences, but I'm, I'm, I'm actually cranking every

Dave Leake:

day. You know way more Swahili than me, but I know a few sentences because I had to learn, Oh, you do give me some Swahili sentences. Well, I don't know if I was going to say this, right, because any African, African listeners, but I learned how to say my name, okay, which my name and so David and Swahili is dowdy, yeah, right. So that I would say Gina Longo, dowdy, which my name is David.

Jeff Leake:

So Gina Longo, need dowdy.

Dave Leake:

Oh, isn't is it neat? Yeah, I wouldn't say maybe it's colloquial Swahili, but they didn't say the knee usually there, so

Jeff Leake:

knee means is, yeah, all right, let's keep going. Cool, nope, number four, um, I'm approaching the future with faith. If God grants me health, I'm believing the next year is to have even more fruit than my first 60. Okay, let me slow down here for a moment.

Dave Leake:

Wait. Say that. Say sell lower.

Jeff Leake:

I am believing the next year is to have even more fruit than my first

Dave Leake:

60. Oh, but you didn't say the first part. I'm Oh,

Jeff Leake:

yeah. I'm approaching the future with faith, if God, God grants me health, I'm believing the next year's to have even more fruit in my 560 Got it. Got it. Now. How is that possible to believe that, well, God's in control of the impact of my words and of my life, and you just never know how he can use you Sure. So why believe for less, right? That's what

Dave Leake:

Reinhard bonnke's best year of his ministry, like the last decade of his evangelist, or

Jeff Leake:

one of the great evangelists who ever lived, Smith Wigglesworth was a plumber till he was 48 and from the year 48 to the year 88 was his epic ministry with healing miracles. And so there is no nothing in the rule book that says your your capacity to be used by God diminishes, yeah, the older you get. So I'm just going in with with aggressive faith that way. So then I say, roles change, but I can keep being a Barnabas until I have no breath left. So what does that mean? I feel like God's got a unique call in my life to have an apostolic role in the world like Barnabas had, who was someone who came alongside of others and helped platform them and believe in them, like Barnabas did for Paul. So I want to keep discovering those new leaders, those church planters, those other multipliers, young men and young women who are coming up through our ministry school and be standing by their side to help them reach their fullest potential as they're launched into their future.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, that's good. I don't have any thoughts on that yet. I have questions

Jeff Leake:

about but let's go to five. Then my fifth one is finally I want to finish well, run through the tape. Be faithful to my wife, my family, my church, keeping my integrity till the very end. Yeah, that one I feel unbelievably passionate about, especially in the light of the fact that there are so many great men and women of God who don't finish Well, recent scandals even have made me feel this even more. I can say with great I don't want to say pride, because that's probably the wrong word, with great satisfaction that I have been faithful to one woman for 37 years, and I have never wavered from that for a second. I've been faithful to my family. I have been faithful to Allison Park church. I haven't been perfect as a pastor, but I've done my best to serve with humility here, and I have kept my integrity, and I want to run through the end of my life without having wavered on any of those issues. So I never want to leave the scope and framework of accountability. I never want to let go of humility, and I want to make sure that I stay the course. I have so many friends that I started ministry. With who didn't end up finishing? Well, yeah. And actually, you find very few people in the Scripture who even finished. Well, yeah, right. Paul said, Paul said about himself, fought the good fight. I finished the race. Now there's in store for me a crown of life, which is not only stored up for me, but for also for all those who long for His appearing. So for me, I man, that's maybe number five to me is the most important one. Yeah, of course, finish. Well, of course, I don't want to. I don't want to stumble at the end of my life and leave a stain and people say, Wow, he was so good until Yeah, right, I want to. I want to live if, even if, that means I do less. I want to finish. Well,

Dave Leake:

yeah, we almost did an episode on this. Yeah, maybe we still will. We started

Jeff Leake:

down the path of, what do we do when great men and women fall because there have been so many people that have, you know, people that we would never have expected, that have recently stepped out of ministry because of some moral failure or personal failure or scandal from the past. So

Dave Leake:

let me, let me, let me just ask you a bunch of questions. I fear

Jeff Leake:

that, yeah, way more than death, yeah, of course. Well, I fear that more than aging, the

Dave Leake:

tarnishing of the legacy leave, and, you know, potentially being an embarrassment to a church. I

Jeff Leake:

mean, those are serious and damage to my own life and family and to those that followed you, I don't want to do anything to tarnish the reputation of the kingdom of God, or, yeah, to blow my life up. I mean, yeah, Jesus, help us all. Absolutely.

Dave Leake:

So, so

Jeff Leake:

let's, let's,

Dave Leake:

let's work our way backwards from five, and I'll ask questions. Okay, yeah, again, I find, I just find it fascinating to like, I can't imagine what it'll be like when I'm 60, and hopefully I have all these five too. You know what I mean? Those are my, a lot of my aims as well. But let's start with five. So why is it that would you say the majority of people that you have done ministry with or alongside of, in general, have not been able to finish well, like, if you had to guess as far, like, I'm not guessing. I

Jeff Leake:

don't think majority. I think, I think that would be a very emotional statement to say majority or lack of a majority. I don't know. The ones that fall or fall short are notable, and they sting a lot, and so we tend to amplify them, and we overlook the people who do quietly finish their race. Well, I don't know that. It's a majority. It's way too many. I think what makes it even harder is that the ones that fall that are notable failures were oftentimes heroes that we looked up to, and we just never anticipated that there was something going on behind the scenes and and that one has the public scandal with a lot of fallout and emotional impact from that. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

I guess that makes sense. This is sort of an unrelated thought, but they say everybody is more worried about airplane crashes than car crashes, because airplane crashes are far more notable, even though car crashes happen, like 1000 times more often, more than that. I guess it's kind of the same when it comes to ministry leaders, that the ones that are notable sticking your memory forever maybe amplified a little bit, but so it

Jeff Leake:

just feels like to use your metaphor, there's way more airplane crashes now than there used to be. There are ridiculous ministries that fall, yeah, and maybe there isn't. Maybe, maybe we always had this happening. That's just that we know, like, one of the curses of our generation is that we know everything and we know it within minutes. Maybe we just know more and other things we we wouldn't have known before. I have no idea, but there's way too much of it that's happened. Doesn't

Dave Leake:

seem like that, right? Or maybe it has been. But

Jeff Leake:

yeah, well, I think the rise, there are more celebrity pastors now, and I don't use that term in a derogatory way, meaning pastors that have ministries that are so large that everyone knows who they are. Everyone's buying their books, everyone's listening to their messages, which makes them a celebrity, not maybe even if they didn't want to be a celebrity, they're trying to be that because of the scope of their ministry. It's so massive, yeah, that everybody then is aware of who they are, and everyone's affected when they typically, they have a great personality, and they're a great communicator as well, yeah, yeah. Or have amazing leadership gifts or or whatever that happens to be,

Dave Leake:

yeah? So we'll do a little mini reflection on this from the episode that died, yeah. So, I mean, I guess for leaders that are wanting to finish well, that are starting out their journey, or that are midway through their journey. What tips, thoughts, cautions, warnings, I don't know. Challenges do you have?

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, okay, so I think let's start from a biblical place. You know, Jesus said, I just talked about this a couple weeks ago at Allison Park. Not everyone who says to. Lord. Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Some will say, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we cast out demons in your name? Didn't we do miracles in your name? And I will say to to them, I never knew you. Okay? So one of the things I think we always have to realize is miracles or successes in ministry are never the sign of God's approval in our lives, character and fruit is always the thing that Jesus measures when he is looking at the solidity and the quality of of who we are. So it actually says in in I think it's second Corinthians chapter 11, that even Satan comes masquerading masquerading as an angel of light, maybe, if we translated, Satan comes masquerading as a celebrity that is well known and has done a lot of things. So the anointing of God to do great things doesn't necessarily indicate the approval of God, because approval only comes when we have character, humility, obedience, fruitfulness. So if our focus is on image and success, we may fall prey to trying to build something that we're not really called to build. If God blesses us with success and everyone knows our name, that adds a layer of complexity, because I think then we need to have to build, we have to build into our lives extra safeguards, extra accountability, and get backing of extra prayer support, because we're probably more of a target and potentially more vulnerable than we would be if we didn't have that platform. If somebody

Dave Leake:

has a failure. Are you saying that that means that God didn't approve of their ministry? No,

Jeff Leake:

not at all. I'm just saying that it isn't an indicator one way or the other. So success in ministry doesn't indicate that God approves of you and failing in some way and being redeemed or rebelled rehabilitated, doesn't mean that God is done with you. We can't judge by those measures how God feels about something. We have to use different measures, like Jesus said just before he made those statements, you'll know a tree by its fruit. And that isn't necessarily success that has to do with the fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control. Okay, so I think we have to be looking to achieve the right things, fruitfulness, obedience, humility, and then we have to make sure that we have some kind of structure built in to support the weight of whatever ministry we've built. So, man, I want to be even more accountable for the rest of my life in some ways. You know, sometimes you look and you think, man, if I was really successful, I'd be like that pastor who has this big church or this big ministry. Honestly, I'd rather not have a big ministry and finish. Well, right then, if you were to give me the choice to have an incremental growth and a hidden impact that maybe no one totally recognizes, but God's been using you in the zone he's created you for, and he's approving of you because you're continuing to act and be like Jesus, even though the world hasn't taken note. But God sees and God approves, and you've done that all the way through to the end. That's, that's, I think I would definitely have an ambition for that, more than to be world known for something because of, you know, great success. Now, nothing wrong with heaven. If God has blessed you with that gifting and that platform, then it's just, what do they say to who? Much is given, much is required. It's just x, there's just extra weight that has to be managed that's been placed upon your life,

Dave Leake:

um, regardless of somebody's decade going back then before now. What? What does it look like for you like to begin that process of approaching your future of faith? Because it seems like you have some planning there too. And like, it's, it's not just a faith, I guess it's not just like, optimism of the future. You're talking about approaching your future of faith, where you have more, few, you know, more fruit in your last, whatever, third of your life, than you did in the first two thirds. Like, I don't know. I guess I'm asking, like, so there's a lot of people on staff here that are in their 20s, some that are in their 30s, some that are in 40s or 50s. Like, how do you how do you plan your future through faith? I don't know that. You know? I'm saying, Yeah,

Jeff Leake:

okay, so, so I'm now going to go to something, Dave, you've heard me talk about so many times before, but for me, faith is always based on having a current word from God. So for me, faith has always been based upon getting a promise from God that I act upon in obedience. It started early on with Matthew 633, Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added to you as well. I acted on that. I prayed on that, I stood on that. Okay, so. So what that means for me is, at 60, I never want to stop having a current word from the Lord. I want to know what my assignment is. I want to know what promise I'm standing upon. I want to be acting okay. One of the great, great things that Pastor Brad leach back in 2021 prophesied over Allison Park church, and over me, is he actually he during a revival service on September, I think it was a Tuesday night, he gave a word over our church that we have been living in for a little while, which is that there would be an adoption anointing that would come upon our house as as of today, I think there are 25 families that have stepped into the foster and adopt process, somewhat because of the connection we have with back backyard backyard orphans, which is an organization that trains churches to do this, but also because we stood upon that word, okay, well, Dave, in that same word he gave he said that I would grow younger even as I grow older. Okay, so that's a prophetic word, and that we would be a model of health and transition so that Allison Park church could stay healthy even into the fourth and fifth generation. So I'm the second generation pastor, meaning Pastor Ron Bailey founded Allison Park church. I came after him. This would be saying, we would do transition well into the third and then we would even do it so well that that would carry into the fourth and fifth generation. But the one of the words is, I would grow younger in my mind, I know, not in my body, even as I grow older. So that's a word I'm gonna I'm gonna go into faith with. I'm gonna say, God, this is what I believe you've promised me is that as I'm going into the future, we're going to transition well, and I'm going to grow younger in my mindset, and I'm not going to lose my edge as I'm moving into the future. And then there's a word that God gave me a couple years ago in John chapter 15, which says, you know, some trees he prunes so that they can be even more fruitful. And ends by saying, this is to My Father's glory that you would bear much fruit showing yourself to be my disciples. John 15 says they'll be more the more I'm pruned in life, the more fruitful I'm going to become. So I'm going to take those words. I'm going to grow younger, even as I grow older, God has got a massive fruit bearing season for me in the future. Even aging is a pruning process, but I'm believing that as he prunes me down, he's going to make my impact even more fruitful, and I'm going to move forward based upon those words in faith. Now I would say anybody at any age, you should have a word and an assign, an assignment that you're clear on from God for your life right now, and a promise that He has made to you that you can activate in prayer and obedience, because that's what it is to live in faith. So and I'm trusting, God will always have a word for me. He'll never look at me and be like, Dude, you're too old. I got nothing for you now, but he'll keep on speaking into my life what he wants me to stand on and believe. Quick

Dave Leake:

aside. Just because I think everybody, a lot of people, feel like, well, I don't know that I've ever gotten a word like that. I don't think you get a word like that unless you just spend a lot of time in God's presence like I think I don't know, in my experience, if I really want to hear clearly from God. It means, yeah, it means fasting and praying, not like short term though, like for me, it's be you've had. I sometimes feel like you think, take this for granted, like discipline comes naturally to you, and you've had strong disciplines for years and years and years, I think, like until you, like, not until you it's like you can't, but unless you devote the energy to the task of I'm carving out time, and in my schedule and in my daily life to spend time not just reading the Bible but also praying and listening to God. Think it's really hard to get that word, but if you do that, God's faithful to talk.

Jeff Leake:

Oh yeah. Well, for me, I can't. I don't know that I could function without the word like I have. So become so dependent

Dave Leake:

on that. But you mean without time in the Word and with God, right?

Jeff Leake:

I mean I need a if I don't have an assignment and a promise, I feel like I'm walking a huge fog. Oh, by the Word, you

Dave Leake:

don't mean the Bible. You mean a word from I need

Jeff Leake:

a specific assignment and promise from God. Most people,

Dave Leake:

most Christians, don't live with that. I would venture to say, many pastors, many leaders, don't live with that. And so we could do a whole episode on getting a word from God. I think we have in the yes, that might be a good one. But I think the key to me, just the very short summary key, is just consistent, open ended time. Sometimes it's like, I just think I've been in seasons where I've had consistent time in my word. But if all you're doing is like reading the Bible and you reflect and you're done, and you don't have this time just to actually pray and pray through list and worship and listen to God, there's not the interchange that I think can be there. So yeah, but. There

Jeff Leake:

also is this thing, I think every time I've received a specific word that I've stood on for a long period of time, it came in a season of my life that I was deeply distressed, yeah, and I felt almost panicked over what I didn't know and why things were stuck. And I what I can say is in those moments of distress and frustration, I stayed in the presence of God until I felt God speak to me about it, that I didn't, that I didn't exit, because a lot of times what happens? People are like, I don't know what to do, and then they quit. I stayed in there with God, complaining to him and pouring my heart out to him, until in the middle of that distress, God breathed something to me that I knew was from him, and instantly the whole thing changed. And that is so that's part of why I'm excited about the future, because I feel like I have a word, yeah, like I know what God has said to me and and I know what he's promised to me, and so Okay, when I when everything else is uncertain, I go back to that, and I grab that, and I stand on it, and I pray it, and I remind myself of it, because that becomes like the guiding direction for my future. Even though I don't know what post 60 holds from a problematic standpoint, I do know what God's promised me

Dave Leake:

so, like, short summary, because I still think there's some like, I don't think that I feel like I've learned how to do this, and I'm, like, standing on those same kind of things in my life. But that's only come about in the last four or five years, maybe. And before that, I'd been a pastor for, yeah, for six years.

Jeff Leake:

I don't think I knew it till then either. Dave, so for someone who, I think I got my first word from God right about 31 Okay, so

Dave Leake:

for someone who is not living like that, I think that sometimes it's like, stressful to hear that. Like, do you not move until you get a word? So, like, what do I do? I'm just stuck here and, like, I've never heard a word, and I don't know or then it's like, this too. It's like, Well, I think maybe I heard a word, but I'm not sure how to know for sure if it actually is a word. How do I confirm and, and, is this what God would say to me, or

Jeff Leake:

is that such an important skill set to develop? Really? Is it? Really is? Yeah,

Dave Leake:

I think that there's a see. I I'm fascinated by this. You

Jeff Leake:

know, this also, this is, this is wild to think of it from this perspective, we just went through some training in Patrick leckioni book, Leone's book called Working genius, and it talks about six styles of working genius, and one of the styles is discernment, and that happens to be my primary one. Yeah, so I think already I have a natural sense of discernment, which maybe then makes it easier for me when I get into the presence of God to discern what he's saying to me. I don't know, is there a natural capacity that for me has come a little easier, or is that something I honed? I don't know. My theory

Dave Leake:

is this, I think that the more I've studied prophecy, and the more I've studied revelation from God, I think that most for Christians, most deep wisdom and insight is actually revelation like it's not something that just You're so smart, or you're smart in these ways. I think it's it's often holy spirit of revelation that we attribute to our own intellect, because we have a very naturalist, skeptical worldview, and it's actually something imparted. I think it's imparted. And so I think for you, it's a little bit natural, more natural, to hear God in some of those ways. I have a friend named named Gabe, who was talking about this as well. He was talking about just how we naturally can lean into wisdom. And I was saying, I think that's revelation. But I think if you're that kind of person, leaning into that and learning how to listen is important, maybe you're not that kind of person. Not that kind of person. I think everybody has this is, I'm just this a topic I'm fascinated by is like, you know what? Like Revelation says the testimony of Jesus, the Spirit of Prophecy. I think learning how every believer can lean into hearing clearly what God says for them and for others as a key skill that most believers are like, I'm not even, not even sure where to start. So that might be one for the future. But I think that,

Jeff Leake:

yeah, but I also think what you just said, the testimony of Jesus, is the spirit of prophecy. I think one of the reasons why some people this, follow me on this, some people don't hear from God specifically, is because they haven't answered God generally. Okay, what do I mean by that, if my ambition is to fulfill the Great Commission and follow Jesus in every area of my life and and to represent him in the world and to preach the gospel to people that need to hear it, and I've, I've aligned myself with God's general purpose for the world, yep. And then I'm saying, where's my place in in the specific role that I play, because I'm committed to your general purpose overall. I think then your position, well, if you're just like, tell me what to do, what house to buy, what career to have, I need to promise but it's really all about me. It isn't about necessarily what he's trying to do. It's about what you want him to do for you. Sometimes you have to say yes to the stuff you already know. He wants, yeah, before you get the specific word about what, what is, what is about the season of life you're in, or the specific situation you're in, so you got to start moving towards his general, overall arching purpose for every human being. And and then he reveals this. And then he reveals this.

Dave Leake:

We talked about that. We talked about that today at lunch, but the general versus specific will of God, there's general will to cut us for every believer. That many people are not there yet. Yeah, so it's

Jeff Leake:

like I'm not even anywhere near what you've already told me you want to do, but I need you to speak to me about my own life situations. That that's a hard ask, right? You got to actually get in on God's page, first moving with him towards the stuff he wants, and then he gives the specific things as you're moving towards that. I

Dave Leake:

think it's kind of like he's already said something, and you're not listening to that thing, yeah, and he won't say other things until you write

Jeff Leake:

it first you just want, like, really nuanced direction about things that are important to God, because they're important to you, but you got to get certain things lined up first. It's an alignment, yeah,

Dave Leake:

I think often the most important things to God are the general will, yeah, becoming like Jesus, totally submitting him, following where he leads you, making disciples, making disciples, loving your neighbor, exactly, forgiving, you know,

Jeff Leake:

right? Doing the things he's put in front of you to do. Those things first, and in the in the journey of that specific Revelation shows up, by the

Dave Leake:

way, this is one of those things that's always like, on the tip of my tongue, I know I've heard something about this, and I don't remember what it's called. There's some scientific principle. It's like, you might know what I'm talking about. You know where it's like, they say, like that. It takes a certain amount of effort and momentum to get something going, Oh, yeah. And it's like, the every bit above that is exponentially increased. It's sort of like that belt, or not the bell curve, but the it's like the slope up the graph. Because I think it's like so often. It's like,

Jeff Leake:

when the train is moving down the tracks, it's easier, yeah, to increase the speed or directed in a different direction.

Dave Leake:

Well, yeah, that those are, like, principles of momentum. Like, most of your effort has to go to get the object in motion, yeah. But then once it's there, every it's like, it's like 90% of the effort goes to get moving in the first place. But then once it's there, the 10% is rapidly increasing the speed. I kind of feel like it's that for Christianity, yeah? Like, if you're only at like, 70% or 80 or 90% sometimes it's just like, why is that even? Why are you even doing it? That's like, the not fun part, like, it's not until you get all the way in where you're sold out, then you actually start getting the like, reciprocation of the dialog. Like it's not just I'm talking to God and hearing nothing back when it's like the you're fully in, whatever you ask of me God, then you get the dual communication back and forth. And that's gonna begin to get

Jeff Leake:

specific preaching series there. I have to meditate on that, yeah?

Dave Leake:

Because to me, it's just, it's like, it's like, well, why are you sinking all of the cost of living? Yeah, like, three quarters the way you're getting nothing out of this, you know what I mean. And honestly, it's not, it's not, it's not the way it was designed for anyway. But I feel like that last 10% to be all in is the exponential increase. All

Jeff Leake:

right, when you figure out the scientific principle, share it

Dave Leake:

with us. It's I'll Google it. There's definitely something I've read about that. Okay,

Jeff Leake:

almost done here. Almost done.

Dave Leake:

Let me see if I have questions about number two or number one? Yeah. So I mean, like we talked about this a little bit, but when I was thinking about what you said, Where 30 more years you can serve His purpose for the rest of my life, I think we just touched on this. Maybe there's nothing new, but I'll just say, I think my reflection on that is you're looking for purpose for the end of your life. I think a lot of people have this fear, like, what like is the purpose that I have for my life, the right purpose? Like, if I'm satisfied, if I if I find God's purpose for my life, will I be satisfied with that? Or is it going to conflict with what I want? Or if is what I want conflicting with what you know I'm saying, How do I know my life is directed in the right sense of purpose? So

Jeff Leake:

let me, let me talk about this real quick. So prior to announcing to the church the 10 year succession plan, which we announced in 2021 I had spent two years prior to that in a master executive cohort with Center for sender for serving leaders and John stalwart. And the whole purpose of that four conference training session I went through was for me to get clear on what I was called to do when I am when I'm not doing what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So a lot of times, pastors don't leave, well, the churches that they're in because they don't know what they're going to do when they're done. Yeah, and the insignificance and the identity crisis pulls them back so they don't want to let go of the thing they build, right, right? So for me, I had to get clear on what am I going to do with the rest of my life? So I already know what that is. Yeah, I know what that is. I want to be a Barnabas. I want to I want to encourage young leaders. I want to find ways to travel and serve so that I can lift up the hands of younger leaders and bless them and equip them. With whatever I can give to advance their ministry, and I want to spend the rest of my life doing that, would you enjoy Consulting at all? If so, probably coaching is probably more my thing than consulting. But, yeah, consulting, coaching, you know, listening, speaking, life, raising money, doing things that that would be a benefit to people. And fortunately, I've spent a lot of my life doing that already. Yeah, and I have a whole group of people that I already am a Barnabas to in some way. So I just want to give that, give myself to that for the rest of my life. Now, I have come up with some other things I want to do too, but for me, it won't be, it'll be a loss in many ways when I'm not the lead pastor here anymore. Oh yeah, because I'll feel like a part of me is now over, and I'll and I'll miss the intimacy that you develop with a congregation when you serve as their lead pastor.

Dave Leake:

I think the same thing happens with people that transition out of being parents with kids in the

Jeff Leake:

house, yeah, like you become an empty nester all of a sudden, something is different. I actually had a question for you on that, and I hope people will miss me, yeah, but at the same time, I can see that there's something else that I want to do that will fill that void, yeah? And so i

Dave Leake:

This isn't a probably question for now, but I just want one of the questions on my list for you, you know we have our meetings, is how we can help people that are in a shifting season like that, because I went when I see like 30s and 40s, you're just starting to build and then you build a family and or maybe not, but you're building a career in your 40s, and you're advancing. And then there's something that seems like it happens in that 50s era where your life shifts, and it does, maybe it's less about you than it was at a certain point and others. That's

Jeff Leake:

why, that's why it's important if you stay married through that whole time and raise a family that you don't, that you don't prioritize your spouse as secondary to your kids. Man, yeah, because when your kids leave you, then it's sort of like, Who are you, I don't even know. Like, why we're still here, yeah, but if you keep on loving and building a friendship with and a romance with the wife that you live with, the spouse you live with, when your kids depart, then it's like, look at all this freedom we have together, which is what I think both of us felt, yeah. I mean, we missed y'all Right,

Dave Leake:

yeah, but it's nice. We're having a great time though. Yeah, yeah. We

Jeff Leake:

have the freedom to do stuff. I think our relationship is, is really improved over time. So, yeah, keep going. Okay, we're almost at the end here. Here's

Dave Leake:

the last one you're talking about, the next decades, blessing and not complaining. How does one assess whether you're living a life of blessing now, and how do you shift into it if you're not, like, what? How do you know? Oh, that this means I'm not. This means I am. You know what I mean? Or like,

Jeff Leake:

that's a really easy one, right? You just listen to yourself. No, that's not easy. It's easy for you. Well,

Dave Leake:

I don't think it's easy for people to take a self assessment in general. So

Jeff Leake:

or the people around you, you just ask them a question every once awhile, how what do you hear coming out of my mouth? And then, and then you can purposely bless. Okay? I start my day like this. I say every day. I say, God today, I choose to aim my lips. I start my day like that. I dedicate my lips to you, God. Today, I want to speak life and not death, blessing and not cursing, truth and not doubt. I want to speak encouragement and not discouragement. I want my words to agree with your word. I want me. I want my words to sound more like Jesus than then, then they sound like the devil. Sure. Today I ask that you would arrest my lips so that I will not say anything in any way that would be taken as a curse. I want to speak life and blessing over everybody that I see. And so I want to praise and not complain. And so I make it an ambition every morning that my lips will be an instrument in the hands of God, wow. And then throughout my day, I look for opportunities when I meet people to leave them feeling better than when we started the conversation. So, you know, that's a big part of what being a Barnabas is, is being Son of Encouragement. So I want to, I want to encourage everything. I want to walk around and just aim my lips and bless not living in denial of reality. I'm not like a, you know, I'm just saying random, trite sayings. I want to really listen to people and really hear what they're saying, and out of empathy, speak back based upon faith and encouragement, so that I can deposit life everywhere I go. And that's intentional, that's a discipline, that's that's recognizing that your lips are a weapon in God's hands and can be used by God for these great purposes. I

Dave Leake:

think at some point it would be worth doing a podcast on assessing what we say, whether it's complaining or speaking in negativity or faith or blessing or cursing, because I think it's when you're we're talking about, ask somebody what, what you think like? What do you think I sound like? I feel like I'm hearing people being like, Well, I'm not asking. That person, I know what they're gonna say, and it's not because I think it's a really vulnerable thing. And it feels like, if you were like, if I was to find out that a lot of people thought that I was speaking more cursing than blessing, or that I wasn't generally speaking blessing, but it was sort of negative or neutral, I would feel tempted to justify and defend myself. And because that sounds like, oh, man, like that. None

Jeff Leake:

of us is perfect. I'm not saying I always get up every day and I'm in a great mood. And if you were to ask melody the question she hears me speak, she'll say, Yeah. He goes through ups and downs. There are seasons that are better than others. So let me reflect on my dad. So my dad passed away a couple years ago, and I remember having to stay with him overnight in the rehab center he was in because he was recovering from a hip operation and a stroke, and people would come into his room. He was in pain. Part of his body wasn't responding. His hand was going all over the place because his mind couldn't control his left hand anymore. Frustrated the living daylights out of him. He was so upset. Nurse would come into the room and take care of him, for when he would say, you are you do that so well, man, I don't know what I would do without you. Thank you for taking care of me today like he just his spirit had been trained over years. I remember once I got up, it was three o'clock in the morning, I had sat him in the chair, I had laid back down and fallen asleep, and I looked over, and his hand is up in the air, and he looked like he was mumbling. I thought first maybe he was having an episode of some kind. And I said, Dad, are you okay? And he said, I'm good. I'm good. I said, What are you doing? And he said, you know, in the middle of the night, I feel so alone when you're in pain. And he said I was just thinking all the people in the world that are worse off than me, and I was just taking some time to pray for them. And so I was just asking God the people that I know that are in the hospital right now. And he had a couple of names that God would be with Him, to myself, wow. But my dad also had bad moments in the moments when he was upset and he complained. And no one's perfect with this. They just think it's something we aim for that's good. Take

Dave Leake:

the brush off a little bit. Yeah, man, well, that's a lot of it honestly hurts my head to think about this. It's a lot to process. I

Unknown:

feel older after this podcast,

Dave Leake:

yeah. Oh, but it's good stuff to reflect on. So thanks for sharing your wisdom on life, death and aging. So if

Jeff Leake:

I if what, maybe there'll be, if we still do this podcast 10 years from now up to do when I'm 70,

Dave Leake:

hopefully it will be, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's crazy. Any final closing thoughts you have,

Jeff Leake:

whatever season you're in, there is something in your future that's really amazing. You cannot serve a God to whom you belong to as a son or daughter of the Most High without him having a very special plan for your life. So I don't think you ever want to forget that. And no matter what transition you've gone through, whatever you have recently lost, whatever you're suffering at the moment, God has not forgotten you. You're you are not just doomed to exist for the rest of your days. There was always an assignment, there's always a promise, there's always a purpose, and God wants to speak to you so that you can live in that that's so good.

Dave Leake:

All right, we'll conclude on that. So to everybody who's listening, hopefully this was useful to you. Thank you for joining us again. Yeah, looking forward to having you the next time if you'd like to help us out. There's a number of ways that you can do this that I'll just throw out there again. We would love it if you would help us out by liking and subscribing on YouTube, sharing on social media, giving us a five star view on whatever platform you're listening. They're all free ways that just help to spread the word. So if you wouldn't mind taking a few minutes right now just pause what you're doing help us out. We would be extremely grateful, but we're also grateful that you're listening to this. So thank you again for joining us. We'll catch you guys again next time you.