Allison Park Leadership Podcast

Virtue Signaling and the Activist Generation

• Jeff and Dave Leake • Season 5 • Episode 11

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Jeff and Dave discuss the impact of virtue signaling within the church and society. 

They tackle how to balance activism with pastoring, offering solutions rooted in humility, listening, and genuine leadership. 

They also touch on the challenges of navigating political polarization, fostering unity, and upholding the values of righteousness and justice. 

Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation aimed at guiding believers in an increasingly divided world.

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Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
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@Dave.Leake

Dave Leake:

Hey everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have culture creating conversations. As always, I'm one of your host. My name is Dave, and

Jeff Leake:

my name is Jeff, and we're glad you joined us today. Again, we're father and son. We both work at Allison Park church. I'm the Lead Pastor. Dave's the North Side campus pastor, and Dave, you

Dave Leake:

just got back from very long trip to Tanzania. Tanzania,

Jeff Leake:

you got back from a very long trip to Indonesia. Yeah. So we both were away, you know, I was there in Indonesia, working with pastors of international churches in some of the major cities in Asia, and also being present at church, the International Church in Medan, which is in Indonesia. And one of the young men that grew up here and his wife Kelly, Tim and Kelly Pollack are leading a great church of almost 1000 people. Shout out to them. And Dave, you were working with SOS adventure, and Johannes omrit, sir. And had I saw the video of the last night you were there was like 75,000 people. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

I think they were still working on the numbers, but it was something massive. Yeah, we filled out a whole soccer stadium.

Jeff Leake:

And so you took a group of, what, 25 or so people, 3232 people from Allison Park. We had one team that came from from my campus, the north side, and we took two teams from the Alice Park Leadership Academy. Shout out to there, by the way, yeah, those, those students, absolutely crushed it, yeah, praying for healing, street ministry, preaching the gospel, and then involved in these festivals. It was awesome. It was a great experience. The only downside is that your, one of your flights got canceled, and you had a 21 hour bus ride before you 2323 before you started the journey back home.

Dave Leake:

So we drove, I it was not on my bucket list to drive across the entire width of Tanzania. I doubt you've done it. The only cool so we thought it was funny, like they, I didn't have a GPS. They're like, how is it going to know where to go? There's one road, yeah, there's, you can't get lost, one stinking road the whole way. The one cool thing was we ended up driving through a Safari Zone. So okay, for about an hour we had an unplanned zebras and elephants. Wow, hogs and antelope and cool giraffes. That was cool. And the city you were in was called, what called sumbawanga. Sumbawanga, and

Jeff Leake:

this is actually the witch doctor, capital of Tanzania. Tanzania of actually,

Dave Leake:

the name superwagan means to cast witchcraft. Okay, it's crazy. It was a really weird why. I

Jeff Leake:

know you're planning a future conversation, which would be a follow up to our conversation about demons and demon demonization and deliverance. I'm sure you have some stories. Yeah, that's the place where you're doing ministry. There had to be a lot of stuff happening. Oh

Dave Leake:

man, yeah, lot, a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff. And it got me thinking about just the just the view of this. I'm going to get into another topic here, but I guess I can tease it. It just got me thinking about how, how unaware we tend to be, the reality there's a spirit world, like we, I think when we talk about angels and demons, or heaven and hell, we talk about, we think of places that are far away. I think

Jeff Leake:

theme very theoretic to us, yeah, like,

Dave Leake:

very like they, they have impacts on how we live, but not really, but kind of in the same way, like we're storing up treasures in heaven. Like, someday we'll know, someday we'll understand Angels and Demons, but in reality, like, right as we sit in this room, there are spirits. Like, it's, it's right here, like the there's a, there's a parallel world that interacts with the physical world. There's a spirit, you know, and humans are manifestations, both spirit and physical body. And there are spirits anyway. Topic for the future, it's interesting to get into.

Jeff Leake:

But, and people who are bound by those are crippled by their role in their life. And when Jesus is declared and people are prayed for, they are set free and put into a place of of, you know, where they can start over again. So

Dave Leake:

my friend Nathan Palmer, because he would love me saying this, but he one of the things he's always like, he's like, you know, like, this was 1/3 Jesus ministry. Like, okay, I mean, I guess it was like, he preached the gospel, healed the sick, cast out demons,

Jeff Leake:

yeah? But it's a big part of the New Testament, and not necessarily a western culture thing, yeah?

Dave Leake:

Because it's like, oh, demons are over in Africa, yeah, actually, demons are in America. I mean, they're not more present somewhere else. They're we're just not really thinking about

Jeff Leake:

him here. Yeah, actually, that was, I actually think it would be great to have Tim Pollock from the church there in Indonesia on our podcast when he comes here in August or September, because he talks about how present they are in Indonesia, and how it's a part of normal ministry.

Dave Leake:

They were very, very present in Super Bowl. I'll

Jeff Leake:

tell you what. Wow. Okay, so what are we talking about today? That's a future. All right. Follow up conversation. Let's talk about what's today's Yeah.

Dave Leake:

So I think, you know, a lot of times like I have things that I feel curious about or bothered by, or whatever, and starts a good podcast topic, but I was, I think one thing that's interesting. To me is that, you know, sometimes it's really nice to be able to learn from generations before me, about my generation, the younger generations, there's often it feels like there's often wisdom or lessons that get lost. You have to, like, relearn, sometimes got us to, like, reteach stuff that another generation really got. And maybe it feels like when we finally get it. You're like, Finally, like, we've been waiting for this. So I was just asking you when we were off air, like, is there anything that comes to the front of your mind when you think of, you know, millennial and Gen Z and the younger generations of like, lessons that you would love for us to understand or get, or things that could be passed down that maybe your generation, it was like second nature, but maybe has kind of been lost, or things, or things that are practices that maybe are sometimes a little bit irritating because they're, I don't know they're going unnoticed, but they

Jeff Leake:

can be, yeah, so this is dangerous to ask an old man so, but you got permission at the time of this recording, I'm seven days away from becoming 60. So I'm officially I think 60 triggers. I'm I now am eligible for what we call prime timers here at Allison Park church. So old people can, at times, become critical and grumpy about everything. I don't want to be that person. And you know, the whole phrase this like the old man who's sitting on their front lawn saying, Get off my lawn. You know, that kind of a thing. I don't want to be the Get off my lawn guy, you know, who's just criticizing the next generation. But since you're asking me so quickly,

Dave Leake:

you're just a preface, it sounds like what you're saying is, if you maybe fall into your age category, that you're encouraging people to guard your heart.

Jeff Leake:

Sure, you know, well, I don't think it's just an I don't think it's just boomers too. I think every older generation have has a tendency to look back at the generations following them and to and to judge them unfairly because they think differently or act differently in some way. Yeah. And one of the traps for people my age is that you get consumed with the past, and you begin to feel like your generation was superior in everything. Because, listen, we're all legends in our own mind, the further we get away from what actually happened when we were younger, we embellish. Like every story you tell gets more and more legendary over time, like the the stakes get bigger, the miracle becomes more dramatic. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's just a pattern. So I want to make sure that as I become an older person, that I keep speaking life and find the good and stay humble and stay positive and forward looking and bless and not curse and so, but I have something that's sort of bothering me pretty perpetually. Okay, well, can I pause and I can talk to talk about, yeah, go ahead. You

Dave Leake:

can save this Yes, because I realized I made a mistake. Speaking of Legends, want to give a shout out to the legend. Rich Fenton, okay, for giving us a five star review. Yeah, there you go. I forgot to do gratitudes. I want to quickly say, if you, if you're a regular listener, thank you for being part of this. We always want to give shout outs to those who leave us a five star review and Apple podcast. So thank you rich. And if you haven't done that, we'd love to shout you out as well. But now back

Jeff Leake:

to what you're back to my pet peeve. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so this, I don't think Dave, this is a criticism of your generation. So you're millennial, and the next one is Gen Z. Gen Z, okay, this isn't a generational criticism. It's more of a criticism of our era. I think that this emerged with great force during 2020 and has become a part of the atmosphere of our culture today. And that's I find the whole practice of virtue signal signaling exhausting, and I don't think that we in years past, virtue signaled like we do today, and I think there's probably a number of reasons for that. One is the advent of social media, which allows everyone to have a platform that maybe that wasn't true before, because if you didn't have a stage to stand on, or an organization that you led, your voice was diminished, right? You weren't writing for a paper or on television or something. Okay, so, but now everybody has a voice, and then the polarization of society has forced everybody to pick sides on every issue, and there is this pressure or shame that is placed there to identify yourself as belonging by voicing the right opinion at the right time about the right issue. And often that comes with sort of a superior dismissive tone that does not allow for any kind of conversation in the middle to come to any kind of compromised solutions. Okay, true. That is exhausting to me and people who Virtu signal, I have a. Role response to it. Number one, if you're a virtue signaler, I tend to lose respect for you a little bit like I start to shut you off. I'm like, Okay, I just watched that. I heard that in that tone that makes me not want to listen to you. But beyond that, I just think there's something exhausting about the whole practice of virtue signaling, and I think it's a barrier to us coming up with real solutions for the problems that we're facing as a society. But let's pause now and let's try to define it. What is, what is virtue signaling in your mind? Dave, and while you're talking, I'm going to get I'm going to google it so that I have some kind of specific definition. But how would you define this pet peeve of mine, virtue signaling. We

Dave Leake:

were just trying to discuss this little bit ago. I think virtue signaling is making public statements about your correct opinion that are that are diminishing or degrading to anybody that thinks differently. So it's almost like that. I mean, if we're going to compare it to a Bible Bible passage, it's almost like the Pharisee. That's like, I'm so glad I'm not like those tax collectors. Okay, that's virtue signal, yeah? It's like biblical virtue signal, right there, because, oh, thank you God, that I'm not like that Republican or that Democrat who's so woke, or whatever it

Jeff Leake:

is, yeah. Okay, here's the definition, according to, I think this is a Webster's dictionary, the act or practice of conspicuously displaying, excuse me, the act or practice of conspicuously displaying one's awareness of or attentiveness to political issues, matters of social and racial justice, etc, especially, instead of taking effective action. Okay, that is my thing that stated it so well, is that it's opinions without necessarily genuine solutions. It's, it's, it's the statement of something informed or not, without the follow up of character, virtue and leadership. It's, I'm longing for virtue, not for virtue signaling. I'm longing for leadership, not just for people who are voicing a thought, yeah? And because of the problems that we're in in our society aren't going away. It just feels more and more like, ah, you know, just one more person raising their voice or telling us how disgusted they are with the other side of the culture war is just wearing me out. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

that is, it's exhausting. So, so, so I don't think it's just exhausting for your generation. Okay, everybody's exhausted by it, and I think there's, there's been a gigantic amount of pressure, which maybe some people think helps. I personally think it does not to speak out on everything, because, in reality, how much is you speaking out on everything, or me speaking out on everything. How much does it really impact things? I think it identifies you as a participant in one side or the other. But I'm not even really sure if there's a lot of awareness, they'll be raised on anything, because there's so

Jeff Leake:

much the profile that has been raised over the last in this generation, the highest calling that it appears now I'm talking like an old man. So you correct me, millennial Gen Z, yeah, it appears like the highest calling you can ever have as an activist.

Dave Leake:

I think everybody think, Okay, everybody should be an activist. Is how maybe it's unspoken, but, and if you're not, it's like, well, why wouldn't you be Yeah, you don't want to stand for good things, or is that because you're cowardly, or is it because you're selfish? So

Jeff Leake:

there's a shame, even with that, it like be an activist, or else you are a bad person.

Dave Leake:

If you're not living away you're not an activist, then you're probably a bigot. Okay, I think that's

Jeff Leake:

now you're talking from a very progressive point of view, I think there's a similar thing on the if you're

Dave Leake:

not an activist, then you're probably woke, or you're probably a sheep, or

Jeff Leake:

you're okay, that's the right, that's, that's, that's what you would hear on the right side. It

Dave Leake:

wouldn't say activist, though. This sounds more progressive. What

Jeff Leake:

would they say on the right? Right on the if you don't speak for truth, yeah? Okay, you know, yeah, something like that, if you buy into the propaganda. Yeah, right. Okay, so side, but So, so this is our world. And you had asked me earlier, Dave, you said, when you before 2020, when you were growing up, was virtue signaling, not a thing. And I was thinking back like, did people virtue signal? I think they probably did, but because there was no social media, they didn't do it exactly the same, and because the culture wasn't as polarized, I don't think there was this immediate response to a person who has been silent or said the wrong. Thing, like, there's a there's an immediate response to someone who says something that that another side disagrees with. Okay, so, but I do think people virtue signal, and I think they, I think we used to call it hip hypocrisy, right? It was like people pretended to be something that they weren't. They pretended to buy it

Dave Leake:

wasn't just a pocket. I was just thinking about this. Okay, so you something that feels it's not virtue signaling over a political issue, but you would call it keeping up with the Joneses? Yeah? So it's like we have to keep up an image. That's why, that's why people

Jeff Leake:

why we belong to this community organization, that's why we go to church, that's why we're giving money in this campaign. That's why we're Yes, because the image of what your family? Yeah, that's why we belong to the Little League or the PTA. It is hypocrisy, yeah, but it's, it might not be. It might just be genuinely participating with something and trying to bring change, but for the sake of image. But here's where the hypocrisy comes in, both with, I guess you would call the the the ancient form of ancient versus virtue signaling, and the current one is, and here's where the problem is, when the things you are saying with your mouth don't line up. So there's a virtue you're expressing to the world through your statements, but there's not a virtue that's present in your life, right? Like, like, there's, there's a the virtue of your correct opinion to your in group that you're a part of, but there may not necessarily be anything that you're doing with your life that is making the right kind of changes, or that is creating an atmosphere where other people can depend on you, or that is where you're creating a foundation for anything good to be built or developed. Like I think there used to be almost this sense of if it's because you've built something, you can speak to this because you've lived a certain way. You your your opinion carries more weight. Yeah. And now it's like, it doesn't matter what you build, like you can have a life that's totally out of whack, as long as you are against the right enemy, and you're saying the right worldview opinions, then you're good. You can feel good about yourself.

Dave Leake:

Let me put it a different way. I think what you're saying is you don't have to be a person who has a life full of all kinds of virtues where you manage your money well and your family's in order, and you're disciplined and you're even tempered. You don't have fits of anger or rage, you don't have any kind of addictions. You know, you are a leader in your community. Like, there's people that like, oh, that person lives great now they earn respect before, if you became a person that was honored and respected because the way you lived, then you would have a right to speak out on something. Now it's like your life could be a mess. And actually, which is, I think, the root of why it exhausts me. Well, the weird thing is that's actually a social virtue is to have your life be a mess, but to be transparent about it, because that's authenticity. And as long as if your life is a mess, oh, we all are messed some degree, but you're against the right things or against the wrong I'm sure you say it against the wrong things, and you're public about it, so therefore you're authentic and you're you are aligned, and you're virtuous. You don't have a whole life of virtues. We're all a mess. That's actually that is a huge, huge part of like, Gen Z Millennials as like, the authenticity of showing that we're messy, I think, I think there was maybe some like, I don't know what the right word is, resentment of this perceived thing in older generations, whether this is true or not. Of like, you act like you're virtuous, but you're not virtuous. You like, Yeah, you like, want to hide. So

Jeff Leake:

we so don't want to be fake. Yes, that we share our dysfunction, right? But then at least we're aiming at the right worldview values, yes, and so that makes us able to feel superior to everyone else, yeah, so, so, okay, this is the other part of it. So part of it is virtue signaling without virtue, to me, is hypocrisy. Second, and that's second, virtue signaling without any kind of legitimate plan or action is just pointless, pointless. It's not doing anything good. That's what makes so, because I could get on board, like, in some ways, when people started the virtue signaling, I would be like, Yeah, okay, you've identified a real problem there. I I want to be a part of that answer. So what's the plan? Well, there's no plan. I'm just telling you what we all need to to believe. Okay, and then you say it again and again again, then another thing happens. And so what's the plan like? How do I seek my T I'll give my money to it. I'll give my time to it. I'll work for change. I'll join arms with people and but there isn't a plan, okay? So, so all we're gonna do is just, just keep on raising the flag and saying this has to change. That's what's exhausting to me. I'm a kind of person I want to see progress, and I don't feel good if people keep talking but don't actually do so that's what's exhausting to me. And then, and then, I think the third part is it can be a little bit of a so it's not okay that your life is dysfunctional. Okay? So it's good that you're honest about it. I think transparency is good, but just because you hold the right opinion, that doesn't serve as an excuse to not deal with what is legitimately going on in your life. And so I think, I think maybe Dave, what I'm in search for is the word humility, like rather than me feeling superior just because I hold an opinion, I need to at least have some degree of humility about the fact that my life isn't where it needs to be, yeah. Can we come back to that? Yeah, sure.

Dave Leake:

So I think you said something, but I don't think you fully actually said it. You and you're like, you don't actually like, you know you're saying you speak on a matter, but you actually aren't doing it. Yeah, I don't think that's what you mean. Let me, let me, let me elaborate. Some people speak out on it, but they're giving to a political, political organization, or they're a part of they've registered as an online, you know, their member of whatever cause it is, NRA, or Black Lives Matter, or like, whatever side of whatever you're on or whatever issue it is. So I think some people would be like, Oh, I I'm active in my activism, but like, You don't mean that. You mean I think you're talking about virtue signaling without a plan of action within a local body to bring unity and movement in a church set. Like, I don't just mean church, I mean community, yeah? Like you're talking about doing something that brings people together over an issue and fixes it so that, yeah, so it doesn't continue to create division. Yeah, it brings unity and a fix, whereas right now, what, what activism often does is it widens the gap.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, right. It widens the gap and which makes solutions harder to arrive at, yeah, and, and, so therefore all you're doing is just sewing into a widening division, and we're repeating the same sentences over the same problems, and they're not improving. Okay, yeah,

Dave Leake:

I think we've seen this with politicians. There used to be bipartisan problems Exactly. Now there's not,

Jeff Leake:

well, it's, it's almost illegal, yeah. I mean, if you're, if you actually say you disagree with me, I disagree with you. But let's sit down. Let's come let's figure out where we do have agreement. Let's build some common ground. And I'm not going to label you, and you're not going to label me as an extremist, because we're going to try to build a friendship here across the aisle. We're going to work on some things that will make the world better, and we're going to lower our voices and our tone, and we're going to do this with a humility to realize that my way is imperfect and your way is imperfect, and we're all just trying to make it work, that that is what I'm talking about. Like, that's where I want to be. I want to be in the middle of the mess with people I don't always agree with, trying to make the world a better place. And if you're going to stand up and shout at me every few minutes like and call me names like, that's just not helping anybody. Yeah, and that's the thing, I think that's so exhausting. So

Dave Leake:

we have this topic on our list for forever that I'm realizing, Oh, this is kind of, we're talking about pastoring an activist generation. Yeah, that was, like a better that was one of our lists. Yeah, it's been, like a Bogue list. I'll get to that at some point. Kind of feels like what we're talking about a little bit, it is, in a way. So what do we do with, like, when you're thinking about from your you know, 30 what? 33 years as the lead pastor Alice at work church.

Jeff Leake:

I do think, Okay, I think this is part of the challenge that phrase pastoring in an activist generation. I think pastoring and activist are two very opposite skills and two very opposite, opposite approaches, because an activist wants to disturb the reality, wants to shake the world, wants to make everyone feel uncomfortable, so that then eventually you can look at a truth that you have been ignoring and get to the root cause of it, and then try to bring awareness of massive change that needs to occur. Pastoring is I have this flock of people that's always trying to follow Jesus, and I'm trying to love them and serve them and keep them all together as a group in unity, and lead them into places that are healthy and help them nourish themselves so that and keep them away from predators and and move this body into a place where it can healthily address issues that they have in their own lives, as well as the world has beyond us, and activism and pastoring, I find to be at odds with each other. Now that's not to say you can't be a pastor activist on some issues, and I know this is. One of the things that during 2020 was being demanded of us, I think it's still being demanded as of every election year, raise your voice. Speak to this issue. Talk about which candidate you are for, mobilize people to vote, bring change. And so you're trying to pastor a flock which is made up of people who are on both sides of the aisle politically and have a strong opinions about all of the issues and may not necessarily agree. And it's my job as a pastor, our job as leaders, to lead the body forward in unity and to follow Jesus in the midst of it all. And I'm sure there is some aspect of balance here, where we're supposed to be active in certain ways and be pastors in other ways. But if you truly are an activist pastor, what you tend to end up with is a congregation of people who all think the same, sure, because if you really start to speak out, you're pastoring a political movement, then you end up pastoring a faction right of this, rather than

Dave Leake:

the body, I mean, in the other side, the balanced side. So I guess if you don't do that, you have the approach of totally, we don't address anything at all, yeah, and we kind of stay silent, or then you have the people, which is, I think it's what we're aspiring to be, where you get in the middle of the firing lens from both, because they're the thing, because

Jeff Leake:

you because then you start to talk to issues in a way that is humble and that does allow for room for differences of opinion, and doesn't want to label the other side of the aisle, whichever that is, with the severe, extremist names that people use to diminish their opponents. And

Dave Leake:

yeah, but you're also calling out truth. I mean, one of the things that pastors have to do to shepherd is you have to like, we don't have a party in America that's a Christian party that represents truth in all of its context, without any any form of wickedness. You know, I think some people would severely disagree with I know. I know that. I know they would. I know they would. But I would challenge that. I would say I don't think either side of the political aisle would represent all of the interests of Jesus, like they would say, Well, some things, you got to leave to the church, and not the states, like, fine, but like, there is, you can see the heart of Jesus, and in some of you know the policies of both parties. And some things, there's this cocktail or cocktail where you're like, that's not good. And I think as pastors, we have to, we have to speak out for issues of morality. You know what I mean when it comes to it, to help, to teach people and to and we've talked

Jeff Leake:

about that we know we have our primary four social issues that we that we want to constantly speak to that prophetically, speak to both sides of the aisle. And I guess that's a that's a talk for another time, to come back to that Sure, and describe those things. But I guess where are we going with this? I guess what I'm longing for is, is the pathway forward to get people to do more than just

Dave Leake:

signal, yeah, so here's, here's

Jeff Leake:

here's where we're going. There's like a longing inside of me for more than just the Raise Your Voice. I'm not even saying to eliminate that totally from the equation, if that needs to be part of the world we're in. Again, it's different than the world that I grew up in and that I pastored in for so long. And it's like we crossed a line in 2020 and I don't think we're going back. Social media isn't slowing down, and the world isn't moving to a greater, unified place. Maybe, if there's some global event that happens that forces us all together, that could change things. But other than that, I think we're living in this toxic, divided

Dave Leake:

era. But what I think it's going to cannibalize stuff eventually.

Jeff Leake:

You do.

Dave Leake:

I don't know. I don't know what will happen, but there's so much fatigue. I don't think people is

Jeff Leake:

but Okay, so let me separate too for a moment. If I can, if I can, dare to do so, I think there's a difference in my mind, too, between the virtue signaling that happens with people who are in the world and not necessarily followers of Jesus, and they're acting a certain way, and honestly, I have no expectations on them. I am not exhausted by people who are in our culture and are raising their voice on both sides of the that doesn't bother me. It's when it's in the church that exhausts me. It's when fellow pastors take this tone. It's when it's when people who are Jesus followers do this, or maybe those who have left the church and become critics of the church. I guess this is one of these pet peeve moments. They aren't necessarily living a healthy life. They haven't become better. People, but they have a pet peeve against a part of the church that they they find to be wanting and not living up to their moral value of the of the way they think the world should be, and they have walked away from following Jesus and their life is not where it needs to be, but because they hold this opinion that they think is virtuous, they aren't really facing the fact that that God is calling them back home, yeah, and he's asking, actually wanting them to come back and repent and align with Him, not to become a part of the right political side of the equation, but simply to get back in the right relationship with Jesus. And then maybe some of the reasons why they feel so frustrated inside is because they're missing that walk with God that they used to have. Yeah. So my exhaustion is the way that Christians act, okay, like I see people the culture too. I mean, okay, so I'll bring up one of these. This is not, I'm not upset about this one at all. But you know, the WNBA has this whole thing about Caitlin Clark, and she's become this phenomenon, yeah, and everybody's pain and, oh my goodness, the I'm a sports talk radio person. It is hard to listen to anything on sports talk without getting involved with the culture war. It's like, and I hate when it invades my spaces, like, sometimes I want to watch sports just because I want to escape from all the other tensions. And when that, then when it intrudes in my life, I'm like, Ah, like, come on. Like, do we have to

Dave Leake:

have this conversation, right? Oh, it's, it's, it's

Jeff Leake:

not, it's just everywhere. I mean, it's, it's every little YouTube clip, it's every little it's just constant, wow, that debate over why she's popular, why she's on the Olympic team, why she's not on the Olympic team, why she should be like and so it's a constant thing. Okay? So that's a general world thing that has nothing to do with the church, necessarily, but there is just, it just is wearing me out, all right. So

Dave Leake:

here's where we can go. Tell us, you take your stab at starting to pastor the activist generation. There you go. What are some like? So for people that are out there that are listening, you know, regardless of their age demographic, what are some things, I know you've talked a lot about what you're longing for, some shifts you'd like to see, but like, take us there. Like, what does it look like like when you when you build the road ahead in your mind, that the church and that believers have to begin to go on, and that we can personally take steps to and that pastors of churches who are listening that are also confused, like talk, talk us through your mental your mental map and your plan, like, how do we pastor?

Jeff Leake:

Dave, I don't know if I have a mental map you. You asked me my pet peeve. I'm sort of depending on you to come up with.

Dave Leake:

I think you do. I feel like I could like, I feel like, okay,

Jeff Leake:

so let's, let's, let's think, okay. James, chapter one says everyone should be slow to speak. Yeah, let me read it. Do you know that verse I normally Yeah, everybody

Dave Leake:

should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become

Jeff Leake:

angry. Yeah, for the anger of man does not produce the righteous life that God desires so quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. So the first thing is, I think that we have gotten way too active about everything, and when it comes to social media, and if I would say so, you have come gone to this extreme that I'm not quite where you are even on it. I still am involved in social media, but I would just simply say, be careful about what you post. I actually think that if I were going to rate things, followers of Jesus, for the most part, have way improved their their online activity since 2020 Oh, yeah. It was horrible in 2020 Yeah. So sure. I think the slow to speak, quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry on social media has improved 1,000% since 2020 Okay, so I think that's very healthy. I would just say there's a couple of questions that I ask myself before I say anything on social media. Number one, I ask myself, Holy Spirit, is this my assigned area? Am I supposed to? Am I supposed to talk to this Sure? Number 2am, I taking the tone that you would approve of? That's good. Number 3am, I? Am I labeling the other side, intentionally or unintentionally, and and if so, is that fair to the to the conversation, and helpful to move the ball forward

Dave Leake:

and honoring to Jesus?

Jeff Leake:

Yes. And then I think there's a third, a fourth one, and this is my current response, and that is when you are. Reading something that is online and you can begin to see the darts fly, start to shut it down, get out of that conversation. Don't read it. Don't allow for the garbage and filth that comes with that virtue signaling mindset to dominate your own heart and life. Okay? If the Holy Spirit is telling you that this is your assigned area, you are supposed to speak up for this particular issue or this particular challenge, I think then you have to do this with great care and precision. I think I would say, if you're going to post something, vet it, maybe you need to have other people in your life that will help read through your stuff before you put it out there, from the opposite side of the aisle, maybe, or just wiser people, older people, people that are a little more, that are just going to give you good feedback. Sure. Okay, then I think there's a second thing, and that is, I think so okay, there. There is both sides of the political aisle, the culture war, have a stake in saying that things are worse than they ever were. Yeah, I actually think things are way better than than we realize. Yeah, the book we read, yeah. So the book factfulness, I would just say recommend to there's two books that that that have been revolutionary in my thinking over the past year. And it's the book Jesus skeptic, which tells of all the improvements that have happened in the world through the influence of Christianity in the past 200 years. And then secondly, factfulness, which is a secular book based on a researcher that show how much the world is improving in every context. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

we've mentioned it before, but it's really good read. It's a very fun read. So like, oh, things are actually a lot better than I thought, way better,

Jeff Leake:

way better than we think, right? And, and things that we are pointing at as crisises in the world, if taken in historic context of the last several decades, are actually way better than they used to be,

Dave Leake:

right? It can still be a crisis, but it's not. It's easy to dismiss improvements if something is still not fixed.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, right. So I was talking to someone in my life who's older than me, and they're a Fox News watcher, and they said, Did you hear this? And did you hear that? And they pointed out four or five things that. And I said, Yeah, you know, I actually don't think that that's completely accurate. I think, like they were talking about crime, and I said, I just, I don't think the crime rates are as high as you think they are. I just think that there's pockets of places where the crime is rampant. But I don't, in our community, it's not up, you know what I mean? So I think we have to take everything in the proper context. This is what the virtue signaling culture word doesn't ever want to do, is add context, right? Because if you add context, then then it loses its punch. Yeah. So if you, if you add context, it tends to decrease fear, because if things are improving, it's less urgent, yeah? What they need, what each political party needs more than anything is urgency and fear. Yeah, or else they feel like they're going to lose their grip on the war right now. No, no, everything is getting better. There are a lot of things that are getting worse, but there's so much that that is better. And then most, most things are getting and then, and this is another thing too, well, part of the context of our lives is that we are a part of the nation, a nation on earth that is the richest 1% of the world. Yeah, right, right. And the problems that we are fighting over are problems of affluence. Now, comparatively So, like I was just in Indonesia, we tend to forget sometimes things like, okay, in in Asia, the part of the world that I was in, 1.4 billion people live in India, 1.4 people live in China, and 275,000 people live in Indonesia. Most people have no idea even where Indonesia is. It's 170 5 million, million, million, 4 billion in India and in China. Yeah. So 2.8 collectively between those two nations. And then 270 5 million, which is the fourth largest country on Earth? 275 million is yes, Indonesia. US third us is third with 330 Oh, didn't realize that. Okay, so in the grand scheme of population basis. So I asked Tim, as we were driving around, or one of the guys that I was with, you know about, do you have this culture war going on in Indonesia? And he said, No. He said, That's not happening here. And he said, We're entertained in some ways by what we see happen in the US, but that's not a culture war. And he said, I said, why? And he said, because in Indonesia, the people receive nothing from the government. They don't have any social security or health benefits or everybody's left to fend on their own, so there's nothing to fight over. So he said, the government is pretty laissez faire, in comparison with what you would see in the United States, because everyone has a stake in the game, in the US, whereas in Indonesia, so you have 270 might 5 million people who who have collectively nowhere near the freedoms. And benefits that we enjoy in the United States. So we're part of the richest 1% of people on Earth. Our economy is not great, but in comparison with the last 6000 years of history, I mean the conveniences and the benefits and the available food and medical care that we enjoy is unprecedented, right, right? Okay, so we are dealing with what they call first world problems, but the top of the top of the first world, and we're battling over so many things that are that are going on with that again, that context should matter because, you know, it should make us aware that to whom much is given, much is required, that we are stewards of a lot of amazing things that are that are happening within our culture and our environment, and that we're responsible to take what we have, to try to be fair and try to make things as equal as we can, but, but also to do things that are gonna bring unity and solution. So,

Dave Leake:

so first, so pastoring an activist generation, you're mapped forward, yeah, starting with James one, everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. That's a that's a foundational pillar. The second thing you're saying sounds like we need to have perspective, perspective of where we actually are. Yeah, and not just buy into propaganda that's being fed by politicians or the media, because things are not always as they seem when you hear them under never

Jeff Leake:

as extreme or as bad, and your opponent isn't as evil as you're as you're hearing that they are, right. Okay, okay, so there's, there's a label that you know, you're a white supremacist, you're a fascist, you're a communist, you're a Christian nationalist, you're a bigot, you're a homophobe, you're a misogynist. Like, there is this attempt to label the other side as Hitler, as Hitler, which dehumanizes the people that you're really supposed to be talking to, listening to loving and serving.

Dave Leake:

I mentioned this a long time ago in a podcast, but there's, there's a book that I read by this reporter named Matt Taibbi, called hate Inc, and it's all about the how much money has been made by the opposite side news stations by sensationalizing the news is essentially the idea people sell the news by sensationalizing just how intense and how urgent is, and so it's, it's, if you're not intentional, it's pretty much impossible to Have perspective. You won't hear perspective and hear sense, sensationalized pieces of news that aren't fiction. They're just exaggerations of where we are. Yeah, so

Jeff Leake:

and, and, and, and. So I said, I think in the church world, we've gotten better since 2020 people are not posting online as crazily as was happening back then. But I think that the tone of the culture, when it comes to the culture war, is is amping up still. Yeah, yeah. It feels like because the other side is so evil that anything would be legitimate if you if you killed someone, if you assassinated someone, if you threw someone into jail unjustly, if you, yeah, if you, if you blew something up, if you, because we have to take our stand, and we're dealing with Hitler, and we're dealing with, you know, these Satanists and, I mean, so it's like, so whatever we have to do, and and there are parts of our culture that are hoping for a civil war of some type. There's some people that are even preparing the map that certain states will withdraw from the United States, and there'll be two nations, and I mean, or some way that this will come to bloody conflict. I think that's a serious concern that we should have, that there is a push towards violence. Because, you know, okay, so I fell in love with a lot of the Rwandan students and congregation members that we have that came here shortly after the genocide in 1994 and one of the reasons why the genocide so there were a million people who were killed two different factions that were battling with one another, and one decided to eliminate the other. And so they there was 800,000 people killed in the first 100, 100 days. Some some people say a million. And part of how they they moved in that direction is they one side dehumanize the other, calling them cockroaches and diminishing them so that they're not even perceived to be human beings, and that then the next phase is, well, since they're not even human, then then we can kill them, right? Same thing happened with the Jews in the Holocaust. The Germans spent a whole generation dehumanizing the Jews so that when finally they said. Exterminate them. It was something that people were like, well, of course you would, because they're, they're, they're, they're cockroaches, they're just bugs, they're, they're a blight on society. There is a push towards that violent impulse that our culture is headed toward, and I think the church has to stand in the gap when it comes to that, to try to bring peace, you know, and and to, again, bring sane solutions to problems and circumstances. And I think the world is just crying out like I'm I'm longing for the character of Jesus in in people, like I want more than just an opinion. Now I really want you to show me you know that you have those qualities of humility and gentleness. So you're on the third patience. We have James one, James one, and then you have perspective. And then now the third one is act like Jesus. Be a person of virtue. Be a person of Christ like virtue, who who by by your tone and your life and your disciplines and your habits and your pursuits, it's good that you're authentic about your flaws. Think it's good that you're honest about where your life doesn't measure up, but don't cover that up by your opinions being proper deal with your life. Okay? So if your life is out of whack, don't make yourself feel better just because you virtue signal online. Deal with your dysfunction, you know, get your life together. Start, start to build a healthy habit. Meet people who disagree with you. Have lunch with people that have a different perspective. Have a conversation with somebody who who has and listen more than just railing at them. Listen to where they're, where they coming from, and why do they think this and and how can we pray for each other and like there's got to be a way where we can start to act like Jesus towards each other and towards the world around us so that we can, we can be peacemakers, right? Yeah. So I think that may be step four, and that is to actively pursue peace, yeah, where we're working together to make the world a better place, to solve problems that need to be solved, to speak up for things that need to be addressed, but to do it in a way that creates space for peace to happen. Yeah, and so I guess if I would want to move your generation toward anything, like you said, but I don't think it's just your generation, our era, toward anything, if the church is improving itself. I actually think I'm cautiously optimistic that in this election year of 2024 it's been way less hostile in the church world than in 2020 we started this year I thought, oh, man, it's an election year. It's going to get crazy. It actually hasn't been that crazy, not yet in the church world so far. So if I could move us forward a little bit further, it would be to not get so caught up in the in the war, and to try to to operate based upon the values of the kingdom of God, to make, to make peace and positive change in the situation. Because we all have to be prepared that the side that we think should win the election, and the side we think should win the war might not win. And and

Dave Leake:

our hope isn't in the power of political systems or politicians. Frankly. I mean, like, like, maybe some politicians would make things better for this or better for that. Or maybe, like, I know a lot of it's like, we got to protect our children and all. There's all this other stuff out there, and it's not invalid, but our hope isn't in politicians, and our hope because the

Jeff Leake:

power structures I've been alive long enough now to see many presidents, and I have lived through many administrations, and I've seen Democrats and Republicans come and go, and no one solved every problem, and No one created every problem. The culture in is what it is. The structures of power can make things better or worse, but ultimately, we are faced with a culture that's in chaos and moving away from God, yeah, and losing the values of virtue and character, and we are in need of a revival, like we need a move of God to bring us back to where we need to be. So, yeah, this particular podcast, Dave, I'm feeling a little more uncomfortable with because normally I'm seen as the you're disturbed, and you're asking me, and I'm speaking into situations, and so it's much less vulnerable. You

Dave Leake:

don't like it? No, I don't like it. Oh, so

Jeff Leake:

are you satisfied with my solutions? Yeah, I think, I think, what would you add to that? What would you add to what I what I have put forward? By the way, we're not saying. Don't be involved. Don't vote, don't don't work for campaigns, don't try to get people elected. That you think all that's very important to do. We're really just talking about this, this tone of things that here's

Dave Leake:

here's here's what I think, if I'm going to add anything and take it a step further than you did, I What annoys me is when people are not asking the question, What's wrong with my party? It's so irritating, like your allegiance has to be to Jesus before it is to Democrat or Republican, before it is to our nationality, to our race, to our whatever, to whatever it might be like. Because I think often our loyalty gets divided. And it's like, you know my, like, our loyalty to the NRA, or, you know what I'm saying, like, they're all these it's like, ultimately, my loyalty first foremost, as it has to be to Jesus. There is no perfect social political system. And I think, like, again, you were saying, I do think it's, it's actually probably even healthy to be somewhat engaged in what's happening in your state, your nation? Oh, yeah, you know to be aware of it, and absolutely moving us towards what you think would be honoring of Jesus. But I think, like we I think it's just so important to be like, to be able to break the echo chamber, to find fault in our party, not to find not to criticize our critic, Chris as our leaders, so much as to be like this isn't perfect, and to realize that like, there is something so healthy about us admitting our own fault, to the fault of our party, the fault of our family, the fault of our tribe, so that we can bridge the gap with other people, because unity is what God's God desires, not unity over truth. I'm not saying that. Not unity so that we can be sinning altogether or ignoring major things. But like, being right, it's not always the main thing, you know. And I think, like, especially being right when we ignore how we're wrong. So like, in an election year like this, I think everything you're saying, you know, James 119 and having perspective, and, you know, all, I think that's important. And I think it's just like, if we're really gonna be authentic, part of what annoys me about virtue signaling is, like, the hypocrisy of I'm 100% right, and my party is so good or holy, or Christ like, and this other party is awful. And how could I be like them? It's like, and

Jeff Leake:

even as you're hearing that, you might be hearing Dave, and you think he's talking about you, but actually this is so like you said, Oh, Dave must be a Democrat, or Dave must be Republican, because, because, seriously, I'm hearing you say that, and people like, I won't wonder what side Dave is on, really, not

Dave Leake:

on either side. Honestly. I think, I think, to be honest with you, like, I am fed up with politics. I really am. It's what I'm fed up with is how everything is politicized. There was a day and age when not everything had to be like it didn't have stakes. You could talk about things and it didn't represent your views on life and existence and on morality, but everything is politicized. And so I'm ticked off at the whole system, like I don't feel like I think that there's lots of social issues that I think we have to stand for because they are their truth. So, for example, just quickly hitting them again because we talked about the four that Tim, that the late Tim Keller mentioned. You know that? So standing for racial justice, standing for the poor and the marginalized, standing for the unborn and standing for Christian sexuality, yeah,

Jeff Leake:

more than just the unborn, though, standing for the value of your life and everyone being created in the image of God. But yes, yes, yes, I agree with that, yes, and for Christian sexuality is what you said is necessary. So so I like you, feel fed up with politics I am. It's exhausting. That's part of the conversation. Is just exhausting. And I'll just say like this, I don't want to be an activist. Yeah, right. I know that may be heretical to some people in this generation, but the more I see if activism, I want to bring change. But here's what I want to be. I want to be a leader. I want to be a shepherd. I want to be a servant. I want to be an initiator of positive change that may have in the past been considered activism. I want to stand with people on issues that matter, but I don't want to be constantly disturbing everything and turning everything upside down, yeah, pursuing every conspiracy theory and to try to and frankly, I don't think that's the way that Jesus has brought change. Let me ask you this question, Was Jesus an activist? I don't think he was. I don't think he was this is, this is gonna,

Dave Leake:

I'm gonna take a stand, like, if I, if I go too far, but I'll just, I'll just quickly hit on this. I've read books and stuff that I with, people that I respect, that talk about the gospel as if a huge part of the gospel, and it talks about his you can come on Earth as in Heaven, as if that's as if that's social change. I don't think it is. I think the gospel is first and foremost the good. News of Jesus, and I think that the changes that come from the gospel often bring social change. You know, Dr Tony Evans wrote that book, Kingdom race theology, right? That he talks about how the effects of the gospel are often social change, but the main focus of the gospel is not social change. Like I think we have to be people that are about the Kingdom of God first, and about the gospel, it's

Jeff Leake:

a byproduct. So we want the just like, just like, okay, here is the two sides of the political aisle. What their primary concerns are. The right is concerned about righteousness. We want to make sure that our lives are right with a moral God. We want to be sexually moral. We want to be righteous in the way that we treat our bodies and the way that we treat the unborn and the way that we treat others. The left is concerned about justice. We want to make sure that the world of passion. Yeah, so righteousness and justice are both byproducts of the kingdom of God coming on Earth. It tends to be that the right side of the equation speaks out for issues of righteousness but ignores justice, and the people on the left side of the equation speak out for issues regarding justice but ignore righteousness. And righteousness and justice come as a pair. They're both a part of the byproducts of the coming of the Kingdom of God. And I think we need to speak up for righteousness and justice in the world, and we need to live a life of righteousness and justice in the world. And so if I speak up for righteousness and justice, but I'm not living a life of righteousness and justice, then all I'm doing is signaling to the world that I think I'm better than everyone because I hold a certain opinion. But I think we need both of those. And I think in the election year, pastors should speak up for righteousness and justice, yes, yes, yes, in a way that brings both into the forefront of the conversation, that probably will make both sides of the political aisle in this current climate unhappy. Yes, yes, because that resonates with me so much it it doesn't ignore that there's another side to the equation and and that both righteousness and justice need to be emphasized, and

Dave Leake:

it doesn't. It doesn't find salvation through political power. Yeah, oh, this is so irritated to me. I If people like yeah, I guess I'm not on any side really at all. I'm just anti looking at the world through structures of power and thinking that the solution to problems is through my side, gaining more power, more money, more political power, a louder voice that's not going to fix it like like the prophetic voice that I believe Jesus has for us is addressing all issues of righteousness and justice. It's not to hide from them. It's not to as a pastor, my mind is it's to not so much worry about losing people that are big donors or that have influence in my congregation by like, well, I don't want to tick them off. We have to like, we have to do with the right tone, and we have to be compassionate. But like, Jesus wasn't shy about preaching about truth and what it means to follow God and our allegiance. There's this book that I have just started reading it. It's called salvation. Salvation through, I think allegiance alone was called, but it's this idea that it's not just this mental thing that we have of I believe in Jesus. It's my allegiance is to him, before it's to any political structure or any any group or tribe I could find. So like, we have to do that. Like, and I think, like, yeah, every time I start kind of popping off about this in my soapbox, it's definitely not against a political party. It's against political structures. I'm so fed up with it.

Jeff Leake:

That's the exhaustion we started with. I'm feeling that exhaustion too. Think probably a lot of people are, and I think we have to figure a way, a better way forward to to deal with whatever it is that's going on in our world. Yeah. So,

Dave Leake:

so there it is, there it is, there it is

Jeff Leake:

very It feels like we vomited in this conversation, all

Dave Leake:

of that you got me at the end, because hopefully I took some of the uncomfortable pressure off of you, because I think I went a lot farther, yeah, but you know that I think this is supposed to be an authentic conversation. These are, these are very much, you know, there are people that do so many podcasts that are great, they're teachings, they're they come in prepared with with like points they want to get across and research that they've done. I think for us, we're having live conversations that are raw, yeah, that are raw and that are just us, and maybe, maybe discussing what people are feeling,

Jeff Leake:

yeah, and hopefully you feel the room to disagree. And maybe even as we're dealing with the tension, some thoughts pop into your mind, and some revelation that's greater than what we have will occur. And I guess if I would close the conversation with this is this, I think the attitude of humility and brokenness about what's going on in our world should be one that prevails within our heart, and then that should be translated into prayer agreed where we say, Oh God, we know we're not perfect. We don't hold all the right thoughts. Our thoughts are not. Your thoughts. Your thoughts are higher than ours. We think we know the right things. We just pray that you would bring healing to our broken world, that you'd bring answers that we could all agree upon to make the world a better place. You'd expand our perspective so that we could see things where they are better than than what we're hearing constantly in the in the echo chambers we listen to, and then, as we're in this election year, we could raise our voice to bring about the right kind of change, and that your purpose would prevail in whoever is going to be elected in this upcoming season. God, we really want your will to be done, your kingdom to come whether, whether that's Democrat or Republican. We just ask that your will would happen. Yeah, it's good. And we want to, at the end of the day, be able to look you in the eyes and hear you say, Well done, good and faithful servant. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

that's good. Yeah, good way to close. Well, thank you for joining us in this conversation. Hope you've heard our hearts and the nuance, because I know it's a lot to kind of go through, but it's just, it's where we are right now in the world. And yeah, just like you said, like we pray for God's will and that maybe we can travel down this path towards unity in the body and to stop, not that maybe there's not maybe as much virtue signaling in the church, but we could totally leave that to the side and become people of virtue who can disagree but still work towards, you know, the unity of the Spirit, to see righteousness and justice in our world and to preach the gospel ultimately, so that people might come to know who Jesus is. So anyway, thank you for listening. As always, we would just love to just make a request of you, if you are listening to the show, maybe you've been a part of it for a long time. We would love your help, kind of getting the word out about this. The way that we can spread the word is by, you know, raising the profile through five star reviews and up a podcaster on Spotify, or if you're watching on YouTube, you can like and subscribe. You can share this on social media, you know, text the link out. There's that little arrow button. You can text it to a friend if you liked this episode in particular, or maybe, as you mentioned before, that one, the baptism the Holy Spirit, has kind of been sort of circulating, but share your favorite episode. Any of those kinds of things would really help us to reach more people, and that would be just the best present ever. So we'd love to ask that from you. But in general, thanks again for joining us. We really enjoy you being a part of this dialog, seeing more excited for what's coming up in futures. Yeah, we'll see you guys again next time you.