Allison Park Leadership Podcast

Does the Baptism of the Holy Spirit Actually Matter?

• Jeff and Dave Leake • Season 5 • Episode 10

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What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is it relevant for Christians today?

Dave and Jeff Leake discuss the significance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the contrasting view of cessationism. 

They discuss the distinction between receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation and the subsequent baptism of the Holy Spirit, addressing common controversies surrounding this topic such as speaking in tongues.

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Dave Leake:

Hey everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast where we have culture creating conversations. I'm one of your hosts. My name is Dave

Jeff Leake:

and my name is Jeff of course we're father and son Jeff Leake, Dave Leake. Dave is the campus pastor at the Northside campus. I'm the I'm the lead pastor at Allison Park church. And we're glad you've joined us for today's episode. Yeah, absolutely.

Dave Leake:

And quickly want to give some gratitudes thank you, for those who have been listening to this regularly. Very, very glad to be part of it. Usually, we give a shout out to those who have left us a five star review on Apple podcasts. Nothing new today. But look over the summer, we want we would love for you just to take advantage of slowing down. And if you're listening to this on the beach or on a car ride, just quickly pull out your phone, go to where you can rate the app. Right right there rate the podcast, excuse me on the Apple podcast app, it really helps us we would love it if you just and

Jeff Leake:

I love getting feedback in all kinds of ways. Some of you have texted me about recent episodes, Facebook Messenger me with some comments and interactions. I actually had the chance to be with some of the SOS churches in Europe. I was there for their act conference. And I was amazed at how many people from various places on Earth are tuning into our podcast, of course, friends of ours that you know us and so if we're adding value to your life, we're really happy about that. So Dave, what are we talking about today?

Dave Leake:

Well, did you want to give our other shout out really quick?

Jeff Leake:

What is the other Oh, yeah. Okay, so mentioning SOS. I just got word yesterday that our good friend Johanna Azzam Pitzer, who is the president and founder of SOS has his own leadership podcast, so you can look it up on Spotify. Yohannes Amritsar leadership podcast, check it out. I'm sure you're gonna love it. First episode just dropped a couple of days ago. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

there we go. Yes. Awesome. All right. So yeah. today's podcast is probably more bent towards people that are from I guess it's really not, but just, we were thinking of this, from an angle of those who are from a Pentecostal charismatic background. Yeah, I guess if you're not, maybe you're also be just as curious about this. But I've been having conversations with younger leaders that are Pentecostal that do believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the power that

Jeff Leake:

should we define those two terms for a minute? Just before we move on? Let's save it or you want to say that, okay, because I know there's some some people that are new, maybe you've recently given your life to Christ, and you're listening to this podcast, and sometimes we throw around big terms like that. And you're like, I don't even know what that is. Am I that? Because well, we'll explain it

Dave Leake:

more in just a second. Yeah. But let me let me just open with the question. I think. So I've been talking with with younger charismatic leaders that sort of have this question. Like, I know, this is a thing. But there have been former generations or pastors that have sort of taught it in this sort of a dogmatic way.

Jeff Leake:

One thing that what is the thing

Dave Leake:

there, okay. There have been former generations of pastors that have taught the baptism in the Holy Spirit as like, this is fundamental. This is so crucially important. Everybody needs to do this churches that are missing out on this are missing out on a key massive part of what it means to be a Christian. But then, like, the conversations go like this, like, I think I believe that, but I have friends that I know that are from different backgrounds. I'm like, Are they really missing out? And are we sure that they are having already been baptized as they have to look like this whole speaking in tongues kind of thing that happens and like, like, I think it's good, and I want to see, you know, Holy Spirit move, but like, I'm just not so sure. The way I've always heard it described is really the way that it actually is that makes makes sense. There's, there's a questioning of

Jeff Leake:

Sure. So, Pentecostal, let's just pause for a moment and say, when the when the church was born, it happens in Acts chapter two, historically, on the day of Pentecost, which is a Jewish feast that is the beginning of the Harvest, harvest season and there was a feast it was outlined for us in the first covenant, the old covenant that that is called the day of Pentecost and and after the resurrection of Jesus, 40 days later, there is this outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the church is born. And when the spirit is poured out, the biggest feature, the most unusual one was that they spoke in tongues, meaning that they spoke in a language they never studied or learned, and the people who were there heard them and were astonished by this, this drew a crowd, Peter preached the gospel 3000 people got saved, okay. So, in Pentecostal charismatic circles, of course, the whole movement of Pentecostal charismatic happenings or the the, you know, the flow that has happened over the years, has started with this event, you know, the x two event happening in modern modern times where the Holy Spirit's poured out, and many people have the same experience of speaking in tongues and being filled with the Spirit. And I actually just was in Erie, Pennsylvania with my mom a little personal story, gave my mom so my Family my mom's family all came over from Italy in the 1910s. And they were Catholic by heritage, really were very nominal. A lot of my family ended up in the mafia honestly. And my grandpa Campanella ended up going to an Italian Pentecostal Church, where they got saved and they got baptized in the Holy Spirit and my mom, we so I had never been to this building, I went to the building where my mom got saved, it was Italian old Italian Pentecostal church building. And while we were there, she said, was right over here in this corner, that I was like, 15 years old, and I was desperate to have the Holy Spirit poured out in my life. And she said, I experienced the baptism of the Spirit all by myself as I was praying, and I started speaking in tongues, and then I started laughing, and I couldn't stop. And she said, My mom, my grandma, but Right, her mother, my grandmother was afraid to take me home because she thought something was wrong with me. And if you don't mind, mom, she has not given too emotional Oh, not at all. Thinking of her laughing uncontrollably is the weirdest thing. I know. So, anyway, that that moment. So here she is 82 years old, she looks back on that moment in her life as a formative transformative experience. Like were Pentecost, the day of Pentecost happened for her. So let's dive into the question. So what what are the what are the questions? I know there's a list of them, Dave, that people have about this particular issue?

Dave Leake:

Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to think of where to start with us. So let's, let's let me Okay, can I expand a little bit? And then I can go to questions, too. So

Jeff Leake:

I love how you do that. By the way. It's, I always say on this podcast, the reason why it works is if Dave is disturbed or bothered or curious about something. We roll so he came in all messed up about some stuff today. It's

Unknown:

a good podcast. Yeah, I do have a soapbox to stand on at some point.

Dave Leake:

Which is always good. But yeah, so so. Okay. So I remember I went to Bible college, this was a hotly debated topic. Okay. There there was this is right around the time of the young, restless reform movement, which, you know, is in that, yeah, that sort of Reformed theology that, that there was this big push, like, study the Bible, don't just believe what your parents taught you. And all these people that I was in college with that said about central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri, we're sort of like, are we really sure about this? Like, I know, this is traditional ag Assemblies of God doctrine, but and so there is a whole huge camp of theology in churches that doesn't really believe in what we would call the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the gift of the Spirit, actually, maybe they believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but in a different way. We can talk through

Jeff Leake:

that. Well, there's also a whole group of people who believe in it theologically, but don't practice it actively. Right. Yeah, you're right. They, it's almost like these things that we're talking about here. Anything involving the power of God or the Holy Spirit's work, or the idea of tongues or any of the gifts are so startling to people in our culture today that it's a hinderance to having a relevant effective church that reaches people that don't know Jesus. That's one side of it. Then there's the reformed theologian side, which is basically this idea that those things were part of the early church, but they're not a part of the church today. And now our emphasis is solely on Orthodox theology and understanding what the Scripture teaches. And so there really is no place for any of the messiness that comes with the Holy Spirit's working, both of those camps, the relevant camp that says, None of these things are helpful in reaching lost people. And the reformed camp, which basically says, This is not a correct biblical thing for today, both of those camps sort of stand in the way of what I would call healthy, proper focus. That is, on the on the work of the Holy Spirit from from a good biblical framework. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

to be fair, it's not all reformed. It's really secessionist. Okay. Yeah. Because there's, there's a now there's a charismatic reform movement, too, which is really cool.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah. So so let's get us through on another really big term. Yeah. So can we define that? Sure. What is what is this term? This is, this is an important concept. Because in the last 120 years or so, there has been a revival of sorts of some of the book of Acts kinds of spiritual activities, signs and wonders, healing miracles, deliverances, Holy Spirit baptism, that was absent from the church's history for hundreds of years. Yeah. And there was a belief system called cessationism. Which means the ceasing of these things, basically. Yes. And what is cessationism then? Well, yeah, it's

Dave Leake:

what you just said there's, I don't know the Scripture reference. Maybe you could find this but there's a There's a scripture that essentially First Corinthians 13 Is it 13? Yeah, I was looking for that. But then I Okay. I pulled it up and didn't know if this was the one.

Jeff Leake:

So it may basically says, you know, it's talking here about how enduring important love is right? And then it says where there are prophecies they'll cease. You know, it talks about how, when we were a child, we thought like a child, we spoke like a child, we acted like a child, but but when the perfect comes, we put away childish things. And interpretation of that, from a Cessationist point of view, is that the perfect coming is that when the Word of God the Bible was put into its form, and we understood it to be the, you know, you know, what is the infallible, inspired Word of God that we didn't need anything beyond that no revelation beyond the scriptures is needed to be in relationship with God. And so, all of the gifts, Holy Spirit, revelational, gifts, prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, etc, all ceased. Now, most Cessationist believed that they went away with the apostles that when the original 12 died, that the gifts and the function of the Holy Spirit's supernatural work stopped with the apostles, because it was no longer needed, because now we have the writings of the New Testament to guide us, right. And so

Dave Leake:

yeah, so so the the idea, the key phrase there is that the when the Bible was written, when it was canonized the way that we have it now, there was no longer need for the gift of the Spirit as demonstrations, because the written word of God came to us in its complete form, but we would

Jeff Leake:

not look at that passage actually say, First Corinthians chapter 13, saying the perfect comes, cannot be addressing the writing of the Bible, although we do believe the Bible is the revelation of God's word to us. The perfect coming is about the coming of Jesus Christ or because it says, you know, then we will know fully Yeah. Now we only know in part, yeah, well, we don't know fully yet, right? We're not in heaven. Yet. When we, when the perfect comes, and we are perfected in Christ, and we go to heaven, then we'll have complete revelation. Yeah. It says, now we see like, in a glass darkly, like we're looking through a foggy window, but then we're going to know completely, and we're going to be known fully even as we're fully known. Okay. I'm just quoting some of that passage of First Corinthians 13. Actually, we don't know fully, and we don't see clearly, because we're still in the context of our human bodies. And the the, you know, we're not, we're not yet in the presence of God in heaven. And, and so I think that's a complete misinterpretation of things. Plus, yeah, you know, one of the principles of Bible interpretation is that if you're going to have a doctrine like cessationism, you need more than one stray verse. Yeah, to prove that when when most of the New Testament record supernatural things, to say that all those things disappeared when the Bible was written, is to superimpose something on the scripture that the scripture never intended to say, however, doesn't say to the however, what

Dave Leake:

part of where I think this comes from, is tradition. Because in the West, after the second or third century, at least in terms of recorded Christian history in the West, we don't have a whole lot of instances of the church moving in the Holy Spirit's power the way that they did in the early church. There are there are

Jeff Leake:

you? There are some historians who talk about it, and there were some pockets here and there. But you're right, it does. It does sort of go door was quiet

Dave Leake:

for a little bit until 1901, with Charles Param and Agnes Osman. And, you know, she just,

Jeff Leake:

in some ways, fits what what is said in in Acts chapter two, in the last days, I'll pull up my Holy Spirit on all flesh. So if we're in the last days, it makes sense that there is a renewal or a revival of these things in our

Dave Leake:

time. And so 1901 This kind of came back onto the scene, when Charles Parham

Jeff Leake:

really starts a cup probably several decades beforehand, okay, what do you give us? So there was a, there was a, an emphasis on holiness, and on sanctification that preceded this, like, we need a work of the Holy Spirit to set us apart from sin so that we can be fully devoted and holy to the Lord and serve Him in His purpose. And as people began to pursue this idea of intimacy with God, where God can break, that the patterns of sin and he can set us apart for His purpose that caused people to begin to lean into this expectation of the Holy Spirit's outpouring. And many were actually studying the book of Acts and asking the question, Why aren't these things happening today? Specifically, this whole idea of speaking in tongues, and at a Bible school in Topeka, Kansas in 1901. There was a lady named Agnes Osman, who was just a Bible scholars Bible college student who had the Holy Spirit poured out on her just like I described with my mom, and she spoke in tongues, which is speaking in a language he never studied. learned, she was the first of what would become a massive global revival of this 1906. It happened in Los Angeles, California at a revival called Azusa Street, actually at a at a old stable that they converted into a mission, that they had services three times a day, and 1000s upon 1000s of people came to experience not just speaking in tongues or the Holy Spirit's presence, but healings and deliverances. And now they're around the world. There are probably almost a billion people who would consider themselves Pentecostal charismatic. Yeah, believers from every background and every denomination. Yes, it's really cool. Read tradition. I mean, it's

Dave Leake:

yeah, actually, the Catholic Charismatic Movement started at Pittsburgh, he started right up the road

Jeff Leake:

five miles from here at a place called the Ark and dove retreat center in 1967, when a group of students from Duquesne University was there, asking the same question, why are we chained? Why are we not experiencing the book of Acts today, and as they were gathered there, and I've actually gone and done prayer and fasting retreats at this very building multiple times, they were in one of the rooms, their small little chapel room, Holy Spirit was poured out. And this became the launching of what became the Catholic Charismatic Movement. And at Duquesne University every year, they would have the Catholic charismatic conference here in Pittsburgh where people would come from all over the world to experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and all of the demonstrative miracles of the book backs. Yeah, so Pittsburgh is a kind of a hotspot for this, right about the same time, Dave, by the way, Katherine Coleman, who was a healing evangelist was meeting every Friday afternoon, in the First Presbyterian Church, downtown Pittsburgh, where people were being healed and saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit, and a lot of people who became a part of Allison Park church back in the 1970s, then called Allison Park, Assemblies of God. And so we're there because of these two revival movements that happened. Yeah. In the 1960s. And 70s. Social History Lesson over let's go back to theology now. Yeah.

Dave Leake:

So okay. So I think that because of the fact that this was not part of people's tradition, there was all this content. I mean, for a long time, for 120 years, there's been controversy, like, is this fleshly? Is this demonic? Are people making this up? Or are they, you know, which can

Jeff Leake:

all be true? Right? It's possible that someone could speak in tongues in it be demonic. It's possible that someone speak in tongues, and it'd be fleshly. It's possible that it's emotional. So it's, it's not it's not that some of the accusations that are made could not be true and instances. But now we're, we're now we're getting into evaluating experiences and motives, rather than looking at the biblical teaching of what every believer should expect to happen in their life as they yield themselves to Jesus Christ and to the working of the Holy Spirit. So if we honestly most people have questions about it, like the students, you are with less because they have a theological or biblical objection,

Dave Leake:

and more, because it's weird. Yeah. When there's there's a lot of weird social media clips.

Jeff Leake:

Yeah. And there's and some people who have had experiences with God, or some churches have a weird about them. And so it's like, that's weird is that? I don't know, there has to So honestly, Dave, when I was 16 years old, and was asking questions about the baptism, Holy Spirit, I thought it was weird. And I went to my own dad, and I said, I'm trying to find a way in the scriptures to prove the fact that this is not really God. He said, Good luck. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, I mean, let's just go through so we so when you really get back into the Bible, it's there. Yeah. When you look at the people who practice it, sometimes you're like, I don't know if I want to be that, like, there was one lady in particular in my church growing up, who when she spoke in tongues was scary. She was loud, shrill, emotional. And I remember once I was sitting next to her, and she began to get blessed. And as a nine year old, I was I thought to myself, I'm never doing that. Like, there's, I love God and everything, but I'm not like doing that. Now. I don't know what her background was what she was dealing with. Personally, she may have been going through something and God was actually doing the work of healing in her life, but because it was so outward, and explosive. For me, it was scary. And a lot of people they fit into that category. They have this like, How can I love God and serve His purpose without having to go into the weird category of things. And one of my hopes is to teach and practice this experience in such a way as to take the weird and spooky out of it as much as humanly possible without limiting what God wants to do in someone's individual life. Yeah. So that it becomes something that we can teach and onboard people to so that they can walk it out in a way that is similar to what they experienced in the book of Acts.

Dave Leake:

Okay, so so like, let me just go through like a just a probably Speed Round gauntlet of some questions. If you want to expand into these more you can speed round, and then we can I don't know if we've ever done a speed round before. Well, yeah, I mean, we probably don't need to do but you know, I think that'd be quick. Okay. So here's one that is, are we sure that not every Christians already received the baptism the Holy Spirit? Don't Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they get saved? Yeah.

Jeff Leake:

Okay. So I can understand why people would assume this because the birthday of the church happens at the moment when the Holy Spirit is poured out, right? The church is not in existence before Acts chapter two. And then the Holy Spirit's poured out. And we would assume that this is just what happens when you get saved. But there are these two moments that happened in the life of the disciples and the disciples. Were the ones that Jesus was addressing. When in Acts chapter one, he says, don't leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift, my father promised. You've been baptized with water, but in a few days, you'll be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Okay? If you go back a few, a few days before Jesus says this. It's recorded for us in John chapter 20, that Jesus, after his resurrection, and resurrected body enters the room where the disciples are, and he breathes on them, and they receive the Holy Spirit. So the disciples already had the Holy Spirit living on the inside of them, which is what happens for every believer, when they when they confess Jesus Christ as their Savior, and they get saved. The moment you get saved, you get the Holy Spirit. That doesn't happen later, that happens right away. Okay. But Jesus says to the disciples, and Acts chapter one, after they had already received the Holy Spirit, he'd already breathed on them, they had already received the Holy Spirit. He said, Don't leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised in a few days, you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Why would he tell them wait for the gift of the Holy Spirit? If, if they if they had already received it? Like why would he say you need this again, if you'd already breathed on them? And it's because we misunderstand. The Holy Spirit comes in us during salvation, to take us from spiritual death to spiritual life. It is the Holy Spirit is the activator of our salvation. Yeah, okay. Yeah. The baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't to bring us into the kingdom or to activate salvation or life. It's to give us power, to be witnesses. It's when the Spirit of God so if you get the Holy Spirit, when you get saved, the Holy Spirit gets you when you get baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And so it is a second subsequent experience that the disciples had, that Jesus said, was absolutely necessary for them to be able to accomplish the mission, which is to take the gospel to every part of the world.

Dave Leake:

Yeah, just just a couple of other quick evidences for this. So in Acts Eight, it's so an axe aid. It's right after the the first Christian martyr, Steven, and the church that spreads out of Jerusalem to go into these different areas and one of the areas that go to his Samaria, right, people begin to get saved. Yep. And what it says is that there are a number of you find this well, Phillip

Jeff Leake:

is having he's preaching, there's a revival, people are getting saved, even a sorcerer named Simon gets saved and he gives his life to Christ. So they're clearly believers in Acts chapter eight and in Samaria. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

I'm trying to find no, I'm gonna have a hard time here. Where's this? They,

Jeff Leake:

so I think this is X eight. It is x chapter. I think it's verse 17. Okay, let's

Dave Leake:

take a look at it. Okay, yeah, here it is. Here it is. Okay. So it says it, okay. It says, After that went down, that they prayed for them so that the Samaritans who are already Christians might receive Holy Spirit, and I gotta find the I like, read through this earlier here, man. Yeah, so they actually struggling now for

Jeff Leake:

Simon Peter and John John to come up to Samaria. They've already given their lives to Christ. They've already been baptized in water. But they come up and lay their hands on them so that they can receive the Holy Spirit's work in their life. It actually doesn't use the phrase baptism in the Holy Spirit. Yeah,

Dave Leake:

yeah. Okay. So this is when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the Word of God, meaning that they're now already believed it believers in Jesus Christians, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, I was reading a translation that I didn't wasn't familiar with. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers that they might receive the Holy Spirit. They're believers. But they have not yet received the Holy Spirit. The same thing happens later and acts 19 Yep.

Jeff Leake:

There are there are believers in the city of Ephesus. There's 12 of them. They're a small group, and Paul meets with them, and he starts to ask them, do you understand what's going on? They were already saved, they were already baptized. And then he prays for them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and they speak in tongues and prophesy, right? Just like what happens in Acts, chapter two happens and acts 19. So, it, it seems to be pretty clear to me that this is a subsequent work to salvation,

Dave Leake:

it's secondary. So it's not something that happens immediately when you get saved, it happens.

Jeff Leake:

And okay, this is what's undervalued. The purpose of the baptism, the Holy Spirit isn't tongues, or even gifts. It's, it's the accomplishment of the Great Commission. So if we're going to take the gospel into areas that are unreached, where people do not believe that Jesus is alive, what we need is the demonstration of the Spirit's power, to confirm with signs, what we are preaching, so that people will be convinced that Jesus Christ is raised from the dead. The purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is mission fulfillment. It isn't just personal empowerment so that I can have a cool experience. And I can say, I spoke in tongues, or God did something really amazing in my life, although that's true. It's really mission fulfillment. Yeah. And so when we confuse the moment of salvation, which is where God regenerates us from death to life, and He makes us he activates us in our soul, so that we are now spiritually alive with Jesus's said, you'll receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you to be my witnesses, to give proof, the fact that Jesus Christ is alive. And so the reason why so you ask the question, Is it really necessary for all Christians? Well, it depends on what you define as the goal of your life. And if the goal of your life is to fulfill the Great Commission, then do you need the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely you do. According to what Jesus told His own disciples like it's, it's an absolute necessity. If you want to be a part of expanding the kingdom and spreading the gospel?

Dave Leake:

Well, here's the question. So I would say that probably is true, we're talking about being as effective as possible. But here's one of the classic things people would say, in college, when I'm talking to them about this, they would say, well, Billy Graham never had this experience. And he's the greatest evangelist of the last, you know, era, at least in American history. So, yeah, I guess I'll throw that up to you. Like, do you think it is necessary for everybody? If somebody can still preach the gospel without? So opening science?

Jeff Leake:

Well, theologically, and biblically, Jesus says it's necessary. If you preach the gospel. Without this experience, God will use your gifting and your decision to bring people to Jesus. Obviously, Billy Graham was amazingly anointed to do that. But that doesn't replace. So while Billy Graham's Crusades were unbelievably powerful in bringing people to salvation, if you were to compare Billy Graham's Crusades to the expansion of the church in the book of Acts, he would say there were some pieces missing. Sure, yeah. Right. So it'd be, let's just say, when the book of Acts happened, they had had the whole deal like they had, people were being raised from the dead, and they had people appealed, and they had demons coming out. And so I think what Bill that doesn't take away anything from Billy Graham's ministry, it's just to say, I think I want the full package of the book of acts like why would I? Just because God use someone in an incredible way, why would I then say, well, the rest of x is superfluous or not needed? Because it's still a part of what should be the expectation of every believer,

Dave Leake:

no doubt. Well, and you know what Paul says in First Corinthians, two, four, I think is a word for our generation we live in now, Paul says my message and preaching we're not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power. And I think I think that the era we live in even more than ever, like, if we are going to accomplish the expansion of God's kingdom, it has to not just be with just words, yeah. But you know, there is an accompanying accompaniment of God's power that comes with or should come with the preaching of the gospel. When there's a challenge or an encounter of power that is against what God wants to do. Like the demonstration of God being above, you know, sickness, or disease or demonic influence or the weather. I know you had a story in Ethiopia where word gospel was being preached and Yeah,

Jeff Leake:

and so I do think we wait, we finish that story because your story Oh, yeah. And so so while we were standing out on the field, and there was mainly Muslims gathered there, the rain clouds started to pour in and the missionary stood up and spoke to this. Right now. It was actually the missionary who lived there and Okay, Ethiopia, a put point in his hand and he said, let's all speak to the I think he was half joking, honestly. But he did say like, we speak to you clouds hold your rain. So this is an essential moment for people to hear the gospel. And so we speak to you to go around this field. And they did. Like they did it. And people were, I heard as much feedback from Muslim people that I talked to after about from after that festival about the clouds moving as as they did about the deaf mute guy that got here because

Dave Leake:

what happened was, it rained everywhere that day, and a circle outfield?

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, it was it was, it was assigned in a wonder Yeah. Okay, so. So let's just go back though, what if you have a believer in Jesus Christ, who's never been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and doesn't even believe this is for today? But they are so Jesus, like, they have the fruits of the Spirit operating in their life. And they're being faithful and they tie. And they're kind and they're loving, and they're just a great representation of Jesus. And they when their friends and neighbors and they make disciples. I mean, you have that guy does that guy really need or that girl really need the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Well, so it's like saying, there's a bunch of things that the Holy Spirit does in your life, some of what he does is he produces this inward work of the fruit of, of Christ's character in us. And he and he's constantly working to change us from the inside out. And and he takes whatever we give him whatever steps of faith and obedience we give him. And he uses that. And certainly, the Holy Spirit's work to build Christ like character is a foundational idea. If you have all of the gifts, this is actually what's talked about First Corinthians 13. If you have the gift to speak in tongues and prophesied, but you don't have love, it's just a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. So we would say, foundationally, the most important thing is that you're saved, and that you're becoming like Christ and character, and you're developing fruit, and you're walking in obedience. We're not saying any of those things are invalid, those are all foundational. But if you take that same person who's got Christ like character, and they're saved, and they're obeying God's purpose, and they're studying God's word, and you add to them, the fact that the Spirit of God can flow through your life to give you a word of wisdom, or word of knowledge, or discerning of spirits, or a gift of faith, or a prophetic pronouncement like, that's going to add to, it's not going to take away from the fact that you have the fruits of the Spirit in your life, it's going to give a dimension of punch to your witness, and to your ministry that will make you even more effective, which is why Jesus says to the disciples, don't try to accomplish the Great Commission without the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, because it's going to take what you are and what you do to a whole nother level. Yeah. So I agree with the critic who says, Isn't fruit more important? Yes, sure. Doesn't the Holy Spirit come into the life of every person who confesses Jesus Absolutely. Isn't obedience to Word of God, the Word of God, more foundational than any of these gifts you're talking about? It is? Yeah. But we're also we're not we're saying all of that's true. However, Jesus told his disciples, they needed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And this is not like a singular thing. Luke chapter. I think it's 22 or 23. He says, in a few days, you'll be closed with power. Yeah.

Dave Leake:

Well, and John the Baptist says, you know, I baptize with water one has come after me with a little baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire. So

Jeff Leake:

you know, so eventually, when I sat down with my dad, Dave, and I asked him, How can I demonstrate in the Bible that this weird thing is not really from God? And he said, Good luck, he then walked me through and he said, let me ask you the question, do you trust God? And I said, Yeah. And he said, Okay, do you trust Jesus is, you know, Will for your life? I said, Yes. Well, if Jesus wants you to have this, and he has indicated that it's going to help you serve him better. Yeah. Why would you say no? Right. And I was like, that's a really good question. And he said, I think you have to trust Jesus enough. Because it is this is another reason why people don't pursue this. And that is it. It's extremely vulnerable. It's scary. To surrender your self to the influence of the Holy Spirit in a way that he can. Because the Holy Spirit's coming upon your life in this way is a bit of an overwhelming moment. Yeah. And it's like, he envelops you and overtakes you and he doesn't remove your faculties or your ability to respond by your will. But he comes upon you and just like you're dipped in water, when you're baptized in water, you're dipped in the Holy Spirit when Jesus takes you and he dips you completely in the Holy Spirit's power. And it's, it is exhilarating. It's, it's, it's Oh, my goodness. It's like nothing that you'll ever experience in any other way. But it's also very vulnerable. Yeah. And it requires a full surrender.

Dave Leake:

It's also it also takes it out of the realm of natural and science. And, I mean, we live in a very naturalistic culture, I guess it's actually becoming more and more mystical, where people are seeking all kinds of experiences, but for a long time, like you could be a Christian, and everything could stay cerebral. Like you study the Word of God, you know, Greek and Hebrew, you're all in. But the moment that it has to get like something is happening beyond my understanding, and beyond my control, it's a little it isn't such as vulnerable. It's gonna be

Jeff Leake:

a little and let's talk about that for a minute. Because I think so I think it's good for me to be the one who's addressing this actually, I've written a book about this called gateway to a supernatural life. I was a that Holy Spirit Baptism skeptic, okay, I, I had bad experiences with some Pentecostal situations before I got baptized in the Holy Spirit. And that's what caused me to go besides the weird, the weirdness factor to go to my dad into the Bible and say, How can I disprove this? Okay, now, I'm a proponent. Now I'm, I wrote a book about it. Now, I love to talk about this. So it's had a transformative effect upon my life. Where was I going? Before that I the right person to talk? Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna say something very particular about that. After I

Dave Leake:

was saying, it's, it's, it takes out of the realm of just cerebral sciences. Yeah.

Jeff Leake:

Okay. So, when God works in our life, he, he, he can work through our mind. But most of what he does, from a supernatural point of view he does from our, to our spirit first, and then to our mind. Right, so those who worship must worship in spirit. And in truth, it's not that you shut your mind off, you need both you need truth, and you need, you need spirit. So here's an example of this. This has nothing to do with speaking in tongues or anything of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But Philippians chapter four says, Don't be anxious about anything. But in everything you're going through with thanksgiving, offer your request to God. And then it says, And the peace of God, which transcends your understanding, will guard your heart and mind to Christ Jesus. So peace will not come through your mind. It only comes to your spirit, it's an impartation of something from the Holy Spirit to your Spirit, God imparts peace, which then can transform your mind. But if you're expecting it, like if we want to say to God, explain it all to me, so that I understand it, and then when I understand it, then I'll have peace. That's actually not how peace gets delivered to you. It gets delivered gets delivered to you as a dose of impartation to your spirit, which then calms you enough, so that you can begin to think, and your mind can be renewed as well. Supernatural explosions of God's power, healing miracles, gifts of faith, casting out demons, does not come through your mind. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't ignore your thoughts. Yeah. But it's an impartation, to your Spirit, through your spirit into the world. And it goes past your understanding, and it's in parts into your spirit, then you act in faith on that. And something happens as a result. So God imparts something directly to your spirit when you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. And he's able to impart something through you by the Spirit, when you begin to trust him to be used in these various supernatural gifts. And, like, that's amazing. Yeah, like, but it won't come through your understanding. That's the thing. It's, it's not going to be something you understand first. In fact, that was one of the blockages for me, Dave in stepping out to pray and in my spiritual language, or to speak in tongues as I wanted to understand what I was doing. And the more I tried to figure it out, the less my spirit was active, and I had to actually obey what I felt prompted that God was doing in my spirit in order for the flow to happen in my Yeah, right. Right. Right. And so yeah, okay.

Dave Leake:

I think we kind of already asked this, but the, I think one of the defensive,

Jeff Leake:

I don't know how much of a speed round this is. We know it's not that's why I was like, I

Dave Leake:

don't think it's gonna be Yeah, I'm not gonna give you 15 questions you answer right away. All right, regardless. Yeah. I think one of the sort of defensive things that gets thrown back as you're saying, I'm not I'm a second class Christian, like if I'm not filled the Holy Spirit. Like what would you respond to that quickly?

Jeff Leake:

So that's a really good I know why people feel this. And that is because some people who have taught about the baptism, the Holy Spirit have made the experience of it to be something to be attained and crossed off a list. And if you don't have it, yeah, then you're missing it. And and I have it and you don't have it in So it's almost like, we've created this strata of a spiritual club that you belong to. And, and okay, that is not the New Testaments approach to this. In fact, some people who've had an experience, but never ever walked out what it is to live in the spirit by His power, have really not much more, if anything than someone who hasn't had it, right, because it really isn't about getting it. I like to say it like this, this is about learning to develop a partnership with the person of the Holy Spirit, so that every day of your life, you become available for him to do supernatural things through you. And so, if someone says, because I haven't had this experience, am I second class? Not at all? This isn't about class or status. But am I saying? Are you saying that I haven't learned yet what it is to partner with the Holy Spirit for his supernatural work? Yeah. And there's, there's no reason why you can't lean into that and learn that, like, yeah, he's available to you. He wants you to experience His presence, he wants to use you in power. And so the goal is, again, if you're thinking, Well, I gotta be baptized Holy Spirit and speak in tongues so that I can say, I've done this, that is thinking in a very, you know, immature, wrong way about it. And honestly, I know in the Pentecostal charismatic world, we've held that out as like the carrot at the end. It's almost like, I got baptized in the Holy Spirit. Wow, I did it. It happened. It's over. This is not the end of anything. It's the beginning of something. Yeah, sure. Sure. So it's like, okay, great. So you, you're at the you're at the starting line, and you took two steps. And you're like, Wow, this is great. I took a few steps, though. But you got to run the race, dude, like you're a card carrying this experience, I have actually was down to the starting blocks. And I took two steps like, Okay, keep running. Like, why would you think that just because you got in the starting blocks. And you ran two steps, that that's the end of anything. And if someone's standing and watching that, and I said, Well, you took two steps, but I didn't even get the starting block. Well get in the starting block and run your race Come on, like the gun is sounded the Holy Spirit's available. He's, he's there for you and power and he wants to use you in in some amazing mind blowing ways. So that people can hear the gospel and, and they will get saved in the Great Commission can be fulfilled. This is not about you. And it's not about me. It's about the it's about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and proving that he's still alive. He's still working in the

Dave Leake:

world. Yeah. So what's another question I've gotten is what's been the preoccupation on speaking in tongues?

Jeff Leake:

Yeah, okay, that so that's the part. I'd love to change that one honestly. Like, if I could go and say, you know, God, this one is a little bit of a stumbling block. I wish we could have started with something else. Because it is like it. It's the most unusual thing in the New Testament. Yeah, I'm gonna speak in a language that I've never studied or learned. And this is what you must start with, when you start to partner with the Holy Spirit in that baptism. But that, can God can we talk about this? Like that's, that's a hard starting spot. In fact, as we as I introduce people to the Holy Spirit's work in their life, that's always the hardest thing to explain. Yeah. Is why why this? Isn't there something else? So you have thought is that you feel that awkwardness? Yeah,

Dave Leake:

I mean, well, so Okay. Quickly. I when I was growing up, I thought the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues were the same thing. Yeah, I don't think I realized there was a difference. What's the difference? The baptism and the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit immerses you in his power to do works of service, you know, but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on Supernatural acts of service, be my witnesses and okay, that's what happens next one, eight. What happens in x two, and then an x 10, with Peter and Cornelius and then an x 19, with Paul and the disciples of John, is that as soon as it says, They are baptized in the Holy Spirit, they immediately begin to speak in tongues. It seems to be like the normal way that we see that the gifts of the Spirit activated, but to the so the baptism in the Holy Spirit isn't speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is one of the gifts the Spirit does that he activates through us. And often the gateway gift, it's often the opening initial, you know, gift that displays itself. So

Jeff Leake:

the Assemblies of God would say always the gateway gift. Sure, and so a lot of times we get caught up in arguing that particular point. So, but let me explain the rationale for gateway gift because I think this helps me practically to understand this. So tongues, speaking in a language you've never learned or studied has two primary purposes to it. One is, it was given as a as a witness to a bilingual world. All right. So if someone hears someone praying in a language they've never studied or learned, they would say, but you don't know Spanish,

Dave Leake:

especially when there's an interpretation for somebody else who doesn't know. Yeah, so tongues interpretation would be some two people that don't know Spanish. One person praised Spanish, the other repeats what they said in English, the translation was supernaturally

Jeff Leake:

without coordinating through the people like what, what just happened there? Well, God is obviously speaking to you, right? I don't know if I've shared this story. But this, this makes a lot of sense for people. Jack Hayford, who is a great Foursquare pastor passed away over the last couple years, he wrote a book called The beauty of spiritual language, where he talks about speaking in tongues, highly recommend the book, if you really are interested in this. And he talks about a time whenever he was on a plane, he was sitting next to a guy from a Native American tribe. And he asked him about his background where he was from, they talked back and forth, Jack started to share the gospel with the guy and he totally shut down on it. And so Jack's sitting next to him. And as he's there, the Holy Spirit said to him speak in tongues to him. It was like, I'm not gonna do that. That's crazy. Like, I'm right here on the plane, but he just couldn't get away from it. So finally turned to the guy. And he said, you know, once again, your native language, and he told him, he said, You know, I think someone taught me a couple of syllables at some point. And can I just say them out loud to you to see if this is your native tongue? And the guy said, Sure. So he closed his eyes, and just like you would do anyone normally pray. He began to speak by faith, what the Holy Spirit was prompting him to say, and he said, afterward, he like said, a couple sentences. He said, Did that make sense to you? And the man said, yeah, you actually were speaking a dialect slightly different from mine. But he said, then Jack ever said, What did I say to you? Because, you know, when you pray in tongues, you don't know your mind is unfruitful but your spirit is praying, right or speaking. And he said, you said that I was in the middle of a long tunnel, and it was very dark, and that there was a light coming to me, that was going to show me the way to God. And he said, he said, Well, I have to be honest with you. He said, I, I don't I never had anyone teach me that. But I felt like the Holy Spirit gave me those words to tell you because he is that light, and he Jesus wants to come into your life. He said, from that moment forward, he was totally open to the conversation. Okay. So it's a language miracle. That's speaking in tongues. What is it? It's a language miracle. It's one use of it. Yeah. Okay. Second, it's designed for, for the Holy Spirit to pray through you. So I actually think it's a starter gift after you receive the baptism Holy Spirit. Because when you are praying, this language miracle, the Holy Spirit's praying through you, he's giving words to your prayers, to carry them to heaven to hit the target in a way that you couldn't if you prayed in the natural, yeah. And every time you pray, with the words that the Holy Spirit gives, with the groans, that the Holy Spirit releases, your partner partnering with the Holy Spirit to do something supernatural, which allows you to practice partnership with the Spirit of God. Yeah. So that then when you get into a public setting, and God prompts you to, to do or say something that, that he wants you to do to, you know, activate a gift of the Spirit. Yeah, you have learned who the Holy Spirit is and how he works by you're practicing that partnership in your prayer language every day. So I actually say to God, that's ingenious. You've given me away in prayer to practice partnership with the Holy Spirit, by praying or speaking in tongues every day, that allows for me to have a capacity to know what the Holy Spirit is saying to me or leading me to do so that I can be ready to function in that way, in a public setting. So, like Paul said, in First Corinthians 1418, I speak in tongues more than all of you. Yeah. And I just want to say for me, the baptism, the Holy Spirit, and speaking in tongues is not something that happened to me when I was 16. It did start there. But I pray in tongues every day. Yeah. Because it's a part of the practice. Yeah. And it's, and it's prayer. It makes my prayers more effective. And that has opened the door for me to be used by God and other and other spiritual gifts as well. And it's a beautiful thing. And I know it sounds spooky and otherworldly speaking in a language miracle praying and language miracle, but it's really your spirit. Just letting letting the Holy Spirit works through you to carry that the prayers to heaven. Yeah. Again, I'll refer you back the book, I think is helpful gateway to a supernatural life just talks about how this has worked in individual lives and made a practical difference that should help isn't thing if that you're really interested in this.

Dave Leake:

And yeah, just I'm going to quickly hit on this. This is not going to be satisfying. Somebody asked this question, but you talked about the two uses, they're kind of two different functions of that gift. Yeah, Paul says Do all speak in tongues to all prophesy. And he's talking about the way the Holy Spirit operates differently. When he when he says that he's talking about the sign gifts yeah of tongues interpretation, which

Jeff Leake:

miracle? Yeah,

Dave Leake:

but as far as personal prayer language, the way that tongue says, I believe that is for everybody. Yeah. Because

Jeff Leake:

he says in first Corinthians 14, Paul says, you know, He who speaks in tongues tongue edifies himself, right, that isn't talking about when you're proclaiming it to someone who doesn't know, you know, who knows Spanish and English and you don't know that the you know, it's not that it's, it's, it's actually something that is a part of your prayer life that makes you stronger in God.

Dave Leake:

So it doesn't Rome is Romans eight where he says, we don't know what to pray the Spirit intercedes through us there wordless groans. Yeah. Romans

Jeff Leake:

826 and 27. Yeah. And when the spirit prays through us, he prays according to the will of God. So yeah, there's something about that function of the gift that is God's way of us learning how to pray more effectively, and partner with Holy Spirit more. Okay,

Dave Leake:

last thing I want to hit, and then we're gonna use the last time that if it's something different, okay, so is this for everybody? Well, you know, Peter, at the end of his speech, he knows sermon and x two, says, He, or is this x 238? Repent, be Baptists, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So the prices this promises for you, your children, and for all who are far off, for whom the Lord God recall. So this is for everybody. Everybody who gets saved, should be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yeah, yeah.

Jeff Leake:

But so I think the gift of the Holy Spirit is just general, it's the Holy Spirit that you need. The Holy Spirit brings salvation into your life, he works the fruits of the Spirit in your life, but he also because he's present in your life has the capacity to explode through you. And so the baptism, the Holy Spirit is just where you give the freedom of the Holy Spirit who already lives on the inside of you, to explode through you into the world with all kinds of supernatural things. And when you get baptized in the Holy Spirit is that moment where all of a sudden for the first time you say, okay, Holy Spirit explodes through my life. Yeah, Jesus overwhelmed me with the presence of God so that I can accomplish your great commission be a part of the accomplishment of your great commission.

Dave Leake:

Great. Okay. So here's, here's how I want to talk about this. As we you know, us the final segment of this, I want to talk about how do we see this happen regularly, you know, even we even weekly in our church? Yeah, I think that's something that we see happen, like, we have a few formats, or happens a few times a year. But my quick sort of soapbox is, in the book of Acts, people get saved and then immediately baptized in water and immediately baptized in the Holy Spirit. It's not like there's not a certain you know, membership that you hit whenever you're, you're more ready and like baptism of the Holy Spirit of baptism and water are essential, immediate things it's not even that we wait they wait days, it's like absolutely

Jeff Leake:

an extra 10 It happens simultaneous simultaneously.

Dave Leake:

Actually, it happens before they even pray any kind of a prayer Yeah, they know that they've given that they've made the decision internally to surrender to Jesus because they begin to pray in tongues. Yeah, so it's like it's and that that was probably a bit of a unique Yeah, it was a unique thing demonstrate that God comfort Gentiles as well. Yeah.

Jeff Leake:

So this is you you brought this up Dave and you're like, we need a way for this to be formatted so that it because we offer it. We offer this a teaching and and we pray for people. When they go through spiritual breakthrough, which is a freedom in Christ weekend we offer when they prepare to go on a missions trip, during you know, read impact week, when we have youth retreats or weekend for the youth. When kids they'd zone or trade kids when they graduate from Kid Zone to go into the youth ministry. There is an emphasis on this. When we have Johan has come through or someone else wants to talk about this. We we will do this. But honestly, it it because of some of the questions that we've described today, Dave, it makes it a little bit different. Difficult to just tag it on at the end of the sermon. I

Dave Leake:

don't think it should be. Okay. Can I

Jeff Leake:

go ahead. So, here's what

Dave Leake:

I think. I think that because there are so many, you know, people that I would say are misguided or misinformed, that speak against the Holy Spirit, there's a whole movement led by names I won't even mention, but there are prominent leaders that talk about this. This is demonic. This is fleshly. And then there's people that they're not that far they have all these questions. I'm not so sure about this. This is mystical. This is not showing the fruits of the Spirit. You know, these certain leaders who have been big problem, people are corrupt and blah, blah, blah. So it's all these can

Jeff Leake:

all be true, right?

Dave Leake:

Yeah, be true, but leaders are corrupt in every form. That's true. There's been I mean, you go to any denomination. Yeah, and even recently, there's gonna have been in the last 25 Here's their scandals in every corner. So that's not a way to discredit what God's doing. My point is this. I think that for younger charismatics, my generation people that in my circles, I think that there's a little bit of an embarrassment or like, well, I don't want to push this too hard, because I might not be sure how to answer all these questions about what the Holy Spirit is or who he is and what he does. And is this necessary? And you know, what about these criticisms, and so I think we've become a little bit shy. And I think because of the fact that it is different and a little bit more out there. And we, as an American church are a lot more focused on D. What's the right word for it, we have high church language. And so we try to make it a little bit more understandable. We teach everything simply, everything is explained, it's not easy to explain the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the mess that might cause and I think that with people that are coming from backgrounds that are not used to just the Holy Spirit, being in the room, let alone all this teaching. It's like, well, we got to ease the men. But for me, personally, I think this should be the lifeblood of who we are. I mean, one of the three core values we have as a staff, it's humility, you know, before people before God, multiplication, we want to not just do ministry, but multiply others to do the same thing and multiply disciples, and bold faith. And bold faith is supposed to be what Paul said. And that second Corinthians thing like I came with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, I mean, I think we should be believing for breakouts of prophecy and healing. But that all starts with the baptism and the Holy Spirit. And if it's, if it's just certain Christians that have been through missions trips, or a PLA or whatever, I feel like we're majorly missing out like I think, okay, be Christians need to have the spirit

Jeff Leake:

I know. And when we were involved a lot with city reached churches back in the day that movement started. And the leaders of city reach would often talk about how, when you're dealing with people who have had an addictive past, one of the most important things that can happen for them is to get baptized. Yes, for sure. So that they have a greater capacity to stay clean and stay free and have purpose in their life. So yeah, so you know, Dave, we are together, you know, me, the older dude, and you and many of our younger leaders on the staff at Allison Park church, trying to be willing to have the hard conversations about maybe what has made Christianity more superficial and lacking in certain key elements, because of the way that we've practiced church over the years. And we've identified a whole bunch of things like lack of emphasis on discipleship, and, you know, maybe not really spending enough time in the communion celebration, maybe we've rushed through some things, maybe the timing of services, trying to keep it succinct and compact, as made. So this is probably another one of those things. And honestly, I think we talk about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, more than most, for sure. Pentecostal charismatic churches. Yeah. But what you're saying is, it's it's so key to the life of a believer, yes, not enough.

Dave Leake:

I think that that, and I'm not saying this to you, or Allison Park church, necessarily. It's just as Christians, I think that we need to not be embarrassed or worried about the reputation we're going to form in the community. Like there's like the, well, we should ease them all in. And once they really liked how normal we are, then we can I always say,

Jeff Leake:

we want to be relevant to people, which is the emphasis you're describing, so that we are talking in words that people can understand. And not just having believers services, with with believers experiences, yeah, and be completely ignorant to those who are lost. But the other side of it is there's nothing more relevant to an unbeliever if they're sick than when God does a supernatural work of healing in their life. Sure, there's nothing more relevant to a person who's have experiencing some level of demonization than to be in the room where the power of God is available to set them free. Right. So there's, there's nothing so relevant to a person who's carrying depression and anxiety than when God imparts to you supernatural peace. Yeah. So we may be missing the most relevant aspects of our ministry. If we deny the, the Spirit's power and actually that's what you said is in First Corinthians, yeah. The we don't want people's faith to be put on wise and persuasive words. Yeah. Which is what a lot of Western churches, yes. But on the demonstration of the Spirit's power, for sure. And

Dave Leake:

I think why we do this is we're worried we're gonna lose a relevance to people who aren't Christians, but our church backgrounds, they're coming from a Catholic background or they grew up in church, but they never experienced this. And it's like the, what are they going to say? Because often they're not coming in blank like they have a thought And a response, like very few people, well, not very few, the majority of people that are coming in probably it's not their first time ever in a church at all. Like, it's not like I've never even heard of what this is, what are you gonna do in a church building? Yeah. And then it's like, oh, well, here's what you believe in like, Oh, interesting. This is like, Oh, you're one of those kinds of churches. And so I think we just drive to like, did, yeah, it's like, well, let's keep this for these kinds of private rooms. And we have more time and we need to explain

Jeff Leake:

it does take some time, let's say I know it does situation. I know it does. But yeah, and this is also true Western culture. This tends to be less emphasized. Any place I've been in the world, Africa, India, Latin America, where it is churches practiced, regardless of your denominational background. People are praying in tongues and believe it for the Holy Spirit's power. Yeah, it is a not a debate, like this whole talk that we just did. In most of those places. Those cultures that I have. Yeah, like, why do you don't do this? What's wrong with you? Yeah, tell it you like it. And Episcopal is in Africa speak in tongues. You have to South Africa speak at looser ends and advocate. Everybody does. Yeah, it's it isn't. It isn't even a factor. It's not even a discussion. No, right. It's so normative. Yeah. Amongst churches around the world, that this conversation to those cultures would feel foreign. Yeah. But in Western culture, where we intellectualize and object, everything. There is a there is

Dave Leake:

a we don't have a supernatural worldview. We have very naturalistic worldview. And so let me just say this again, if this is the foundational thing, like baptism and water, salvation and baptism, Elizabeth, I'll go hand in hand. It shouldn't be a eventually we'll get there. I mean, calculus. Yeah, this is advanced. This is advanced Christianity. This is what it

Jeff Leake:

is, in some ways. I mean, it will advance your Christianity into someplace that very few Christians ever go. But it isn't advanced in that you have to have a certain amount of time or diplomas involved. Before you can graduate there. You can get saved in one moment. Actually, this happened for Fernando, who is one of the directors of SOS adventure. Yeah, the first time he came to church at Allison Park church, he gave his life to Jesus. And he's sitting on the front row, and began to speak in tongues. Yeah, he didn't even know what it was. He had no idea what was going on. Yeah. And he in people had to say he like what just happened to me. And it was like, Well, you know, he they walked him through that whole thing. Yeah. So it is it isn't a you know, down the road, once I learn more, you can actually say, Holy Spirit. If you're really there, Jesus, if you really want to do this in my life, even as you're listening to this podcast, you can just lift up your hands and say, I'm available Holy Spirit have your way in my life. I want you to do this in me. And you don't ask I have to ask him twice, he'll, you'll start to work in your life. As you give him place. Yeah.

Dave Leake:

So obviously, it will advance your life. Well, but I think it's a foundation ABCs of what it means to follow Jesus. It's the beginning is all I'm trying to say. I don't think it's a midway point. It's a beginning. So yeah, I think I guess we haven't really landed on this. But this is my question like, how do we make this irregular? I think, I know we're going a little long, but people always tell me it's gonna go long. So I'll just take another minute for and I think we got to figure out how to programmatically put this in. But I think it starts with the desire among our, you know, long term Christians and APC and those who are passionate, especially our staff, is to eagerly desire this, you know, POC politics about either leaders, the Gibson sphere, especially prophecy, I think, unless we are like, I want to see an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and I'm willing to deal with him at the mass. I'm willing to deal with the reputational Fallout risk, I'm willing to deal with some people being weird that we got to pull aside and be like, let's maybe like, I mean, like, there's probably some provision for sort of uncomfortable, right, but

Jeff Leake:

Well, I think somehow, if I'm gonna guess how it would practically get put into our mix, it would be after the service is complete when we have a response time after the message, where we just expand the repertoire of what we talked about there. If anyone needs prayer, or what we pray for it to sit to say maybe even in a discipline scheduled way. Today, we're gonna have an opportunity if you've never been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Yeah, to take that step. Yeah, probably just as simple as that. Am I just, it just needs to get disciplined and planned. That's a good point. And then to figure out how to talk about it in a way that's reasonable and inviting. So that people are not confused, but but they do have an opportunity to step forward and say, I want this.

Dave Leake:

Yeah. And I think I think the last bit So that is, I think, I just think there's always going to be it we have to get comfortable with the fact that there is a chance some people are going to see this and think it's weird. Yeah. Like there's there's no way. I mean, the Holy Spirit's work throughout the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament often is accompanied by weird things. And like, but

Jeff Leake:

weird is not the goal. No, we want to take as much of the weird out of it as we can, without losing the punch. We

Dave Leake:

want to take the human weirdness human weird, yeah, but sometimes there's a Holy Spirit awareness. It's true, the spirit instructs weird things. And I just think it's like, okay, we don't want to be fleshly. Yeah, but spiritual is sometimes weirder than we would like it to be. I am not a I'm not someone that's into, you know, all of the expressive stuff, stuff that I think other people are into. But I, for me, I've just had God speak this to me recently, I have to get more comfortable with what's uncomfortable for me. Okay,

Jeff Leake:

so let me put a pitch out there. So every year, we sponsor something called the Ignite conference, which happens in January, it'll be January 2025. And our goal for this particular Ignite conference is to emphasize the flowing and the gifts of the Spirit I'll come on, and teaching churches and leaders how to programmatically include things like this into their environment, okay? Because there are many when we talk about anytime we talk about this topic, Dave, there are pastors all over that say, I need to figure out what you guys are doing, because I'm not even at the level where you are, where this is included into. So we, we want to, we want to make it simple, practicable, reasonable, applicable, non spooky. And we want to teach how you can take this concept, as well as the concepts of all the gifts of the Spirit, and to train your people how to begin to flow with the Holy Spirit's doing, that's really good. That's gonna be the whole emphasis of our that's really

Dave Leake:

good night. And let's, let's, man, I just feel passionate about this, let's see an explosion of this where it becomes normative and regular among our churches again, and not just like, you have to go to some small back country church where somebody has this crazy, sort of semi freaky experience where like, is that what that is? Like? I think we can see explosive outpouring of the Holy Spirit, not just in retreat moments or at Ignite conference levels, where you have a guest speaker from Sweden. Yeah, I think we can make this a regular every week part of our experience, where the Holy Spirit blows things up.

Jeff Leake:

As usual. Dave, you are prodding us on to get a little more intense? I love it. Yeah.

Dave Leake:

All right. Well, that was a little long, but hope you enjoyed that. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. If you're if you're looking for more information, like maybe this wasn't quite satisfying for you, maybe you haven't ever actually been baptized and Holy Spirit, you're not really sure where to start. Just a quick plug. There's a book that you wrote called gateway to the supernatural, which details everything we talked about, but in a lot more detail. And it's very practical, with instructions about how you can begin to seek the Holy Spirit. Actually, one of the pastors on our staff, Pastor Kyler, cedar wall, grew up in a church like ours, but had never received this himself and was pretty skeptical, had a lot of questions, and it was through reading your book, actually, in his own room by himself, he was baptized in the Holy Spirit. And so if you're looking for this, that's a really great place to start, you can find that online, you can find it at any Allison Park church location, my

Jeff Leake:

goal, and I'm not sure I'm gonna hit this, I hope I do is to write part two of that book, it's good, which is so if the if the baptism of the Spirit is the gateway to supernatural life, the supernatural life is all about living, and functioning with the gifts of the Spirit. So the part two of the book, which I want to have out by ignite in January, okay, is how to begin to function the gifts of the least

Dave Leake:

that's awesome. Yeah, very cool. So so that's a great place to start, if you're looking for this. And I guess in closing, I would just say, all of this sort of starts with the desire, God's not wanting to hold back any of this from you, if you if you begin to pursue this and read scripture, you know, on this early, you know, the book of Acts, Acts to especially and then First Corinthians 12, as another place to look and you begin to read these and ask God, God will give this to you. God wants to give good gifts to his kids. So I would just encourage you to join us in this journey, join along with the Holy Spirit, what he's doing. And you know, very excited for that as my prayer for us and for you as well. So anyway, thank you for joining us. Thanks for being a part of this. As always, few things. Ask if you can help us spread the word by telling people or word by word of mouth, you can send them the link you can post on social media. If you're on YouTube, Like and subscribe, you can leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or on Spotify. Any of those help us spread the word and we would very much appreciate that. So yeah, we're so glad you joined us again. We'll see you guys again next time.