Jeff and Dave Leake explore the biblical narrative of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction and the reasons behind it, ranging from greed and injustice to supernatural activity.
They also examine the interpretation of biblical writings including Genesis 6 and 19, the concept of "sons of God,” the Nephilim, and the existence of demons.
Lastly, they offer intriguing insights into the unseen realm and its relevance to living a Christian life.
LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake
Jeff and Dave Leake explore the biblical narrative of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction and the reasons behind it, ranging from greed and injustice to supernatural activity.
They also examine the interpretation of biblical writings including Genesis 6 and 19, the concept of "sons of God,” the Nephilim, and the existence of demons.
Lastly, they offer intriguing insights into the unseen realm and its relevance to living a Christian life.
LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake
Everybody, welcome to the Allison Park Leadership Podcast. My name is Dave.
Jeff Leake:And my name is Jeff and of course we're Dave and Jeff Leake and we're father and son and I'm the lead pastor at Allison Park Church, Dave is the North Side campus pastor, and we're glad that you're joining us. So Allison Park Leadership Podcast, we talk about the principles behind the plans. And we really love to talk about anything that has to do with controversy, culture, theology, we got to theology one we're going to talk about today. So we're glad you've joined us. Do we have any shout outs Dave?
Dave Leake:We do, we have a couple of gratitudes we have one from Mark D'Amico, and another from Jay Ziggler 79. So thank you so much. And we would also just love to give you a shout out if you want to leave us a five star review, specifically an apple podcast, we would love to, again to say a public Thank you, we can't see it if you do it on Spotify, but Spotify is greatly appreciated as well. And that just helps us to be kind of seen a little bit easier in the ranking. So thank you so much. Yeah, I was thinking about this. You know, we probably talked about this once every few months. We do occasionally talk about the principles behind the plans or leadership.
Jeff Leake:We need a new new new byline. Yeah. Well, I'm probably not going to change the name of the podcast. So you and I were talking recently about how probably my generation especially the big themes, what did you say are three things excellence, leadership, and community.
Dave Leake:And I don't know about just your generation, it's just been the church.
Jeff Leake:But I think my generation, I don't think the generation prior to me had huge themes on excellence or leadership, those things kind of came about in late 80s, early 90s. And then community as well. So a lot of podcasts, a lot of leadership talks, a lot of you get a lot of information about those three things, you know, leading, leading with excellence. What did you say?
Dave Leake:Just like an excellent, what was a, an excellent, excellent community of leaders, whatever churches trying to build? Yeah.
Jeff Leake:And certainly, probably when we started this podcast, and pick the name, we were in little bit in that zone. And then it's emerged into something else, because I think you said it, you said it another way that there is a longing and a lot of people right now, to hear something that you don't hear everywhere. Yeah.
Dave Leake:Or like to address the parts of the Bible that are, you know, more difficult or weird, or you just don't hear him talked about a lot, because I think there's a hunger for that for less surface for more
Jeff Leake:depth. Yeah. And this allows us this podcast allows us to deal with some topics that you could probably never really address effectively in a Sunday morning message true,
Dave Leake:so to speak. Like we would never really address Halloween on Sunday morning.
Jeff Leake:Yeah, not quite like we did. Anyway. So relevant, applicable, a lot of times questions people are asking, but a little more conversational helps in that journey. And today, we're going to deliver on promise we're going to been saying we've been, we'd have a follow up to the Nephilim episode scuze me, and that we would talk a little bit about the books that we've been reading together the unseen realm. And so here we are, here we are ready to go. I don't think we're going to start there, though. Right? We're gonna start with another question. Sure.
Dave Leake:Yeah, what's the question?
Jeff Leake:So I had actually seen a teaching about why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? And the teaching that I saw actually quoted, a verse in the book of Ezekiel and referred to some sins of Saddam, that I had never associated because, okay, let's just face it. The sodomy is known by the name of the city as homosexual says sex, right. And so there have been laws all over the world against sodomy. So So most people when they associate the judgment that God pronounced on Sodom and Gomorrah, raining down fire, and brimstone on them with the sin of homosexuality. But actually, I just heard a professor he was talking and he pointed out the fact that the sins of Sodom are described in another passage, Ezekiel chapter 1649, says this, this was the sin of your sister Sodom, she and her daughters are arrogant, overfed, unconcerned, and they did not help the poor and needy. And so his emphasis was the reason why God destroyed Saddam was because of their greed, and their self gratification. And they're, you know, injustice, that whole angle, which is something that I had never seen before in the Scriptures about Saddam. But there are some other scriptures that counterbalance that, that talk about some other things. And this led us into the whole question of, you know, maybe this has to do with some other sub stories like what we talked about with the supernatural being is called the Nephilim. So that's why we ended up here So why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah is the question we're going to address. And we're going to try to talk about it from a very broad perspective biblically and maybe get some understanding about all of God's judgments in the Old Testament, or many of them that are hard to understand. So that's, that sets the table for us.
Dave Leake:Yeah, I'm looking at all these verses about Sodom and Gomorrah, there's a lot of verses about it's,
Jeff Leake:it's, it's a theme throughout the Scripture. In fact, Jesus addresses it multiple times. And he's contrasting things. And he'll say things like Matthew 1015. Truly, I tell you, it'd be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on judgment day than for that town that wasn't recognizing his presence. So Kip hernia, he says, Matthew 1123, you'll be lifted to the Heavens, no, you'll go down to Hades for if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. So Jesus refers to Sodom and Gomorrah as one of God's moments of judgment, that validates the fact that God will have to judge other places, right? If they don't deal with their particular sinful condition, we
Dave Leake:also basically says, like, eat like, you know, you'll be judged differently, depending on how much of an opportunity you have, because he says, you know, like, if these things have been performance, they would have rented it, right? Yeah, you're too hard hearted. And so it's gonna be worse for you. Yeah. So there, there's a lot of interesting stuff about some of the more so do we you said? Do we want to start with like, Why did God destroy them? Or do we want to start with like, like, where do you want ahead, as we kind of dive into this weird topic? How about we describe the story about what Sodom and Gomorrah actually was? And us? Sure,
Jeff Leake:let's do that. So Genesis 19, is where it starts, right? And the Bible tells us that, you know, God shows up in Abraham's life prior to this, and tells Abraham, I'm getting ready to bring judgment on the city. And Abraham makes this intercession, you know, God, if there's 50 people, will you spare? And he says, Yes, and if there's 40, and if it's 30, and down to even if there's 10, and God says, If there's 10, righteous people there, I won't judge them. And, and yet there was not 10, right. And so, the Bible says there that two angels arrive and Sodom, and they find lat, and his family, and they beg lot in the family to leave. And so they flee the city of Sodom just in time for judgment to come raining down upon that city. And so, you know, again, most people maybe have never read. I shouldn't say most people, many people have never read Genesis 19. But they may be familiar with this idea of, you know, God raining down fire from the heavens,
Dave Leake:yeah, we're in debt. And this is like the hellfire and brimstone judgment sort of idea and where
Jeff Leake:and where the whole story of I guess the sodomy the LGBT component of the story is that these angels show up at lots house. And they actually go to the city square to spend the night and lot insisted they strongly go with him and entered his house, he prepared a meal for them. And it says, um, before they all gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom, both young and old, surrounded the house, they called to Lot, whereas the where are the men that it came to you that I bring them out to us, so that we can have sex with them a lot went outside to meet them and shut his door. And he said, Don't do this wicked thing. And then he says, I have some daughters you can abuse, like the value of hospitality in ancient culture was so huge that his duty was to protect these guests at all costs. And so the men inside these angels verse 10, pull lot inside back into the house and shut the door. And they struck the men who were at the door of the house with blindness so that they couldn't see and then lot in the family along with the angels flee Sodom and Gomorrah and the next thing you know, fire and sulfur is raining down from heaven. By the way,
Dave Leake:it stays weird too,
Jeff Leake:because Lot's wife looks back and she turns into a pillar of salt.
Dave Leake:What a weird story,
Jeff Leake:weird story as it is. So there is archaeological archaeological evidence, though, in the place where they think Sodom and Gomorrah was that they have these rocks, sulfur rocks, that are populating that place that seem to indicate something like this interest. So there is some scientific, recent discovery logical evidence. Yeah, that's right, this. So when you look at the story, it seems like well, because they wanted to have sex with the angels. And the Bible calls the men they thought there has to be men, but they realized they were angels. Right. So this this is where we enter the question mark. So was this just because Saddam was filled with greedy people who were committing injustice. Was it because there was some perverse of sexual activity going on in Sodom? Or was this another episode like Genesis chapter six, where angels were wanting or men were wanting to meet with angels and produce that quasi demonic being that shows up and and in Genesis chapter six as the Nephilim. And if that is the case, if there has been some kind of demonic activity, like happened in Genesis chapter six, maybe the reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is the same reason why he sent the flood on the earth. And it had to do with destroying this strain of evil, which is also Yeah, okay, that's so potentially exists. So
Dave Leake:we just got done reading a sort of controversial book not I guess not that controversial by Dr. Michael Heizer, called the unseen realm. And his whole premise of the book is there are all of these weird passages in the Bible that describe supernatural activity that you wouldn't necessarily see unless you look at the original translation, or you dive in into it, or you
Jeff Leake:understand the the supernatural way of looking at the world that the ancient world, which is a world in which the scriptures were written, or birthed out of saw things,
Dave Leake:and I think he's really only probably controversial at all, because he often will use as a historical reference, some of the Second Temple writings like the Book of Enoch, or things like that. He doesn't really ever quote them a scripture in his book, he just,
Jeff Leake:he uses them as a lot of the basis for how he would interpret certain phrases in the Scripture.
Dave Leake:Well, and honestly, he presents somewhat compelling evidence that Peter and Jude would have also used the Book of Enoch, especially Jude, right, which is fascinating, actually, which is, which is
Jeff Leake:one of the other texts that deal with Sodom and Gomorrah actually. So in Jude one seven, and it says, In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves to sexual immorality and perversion, and they serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Yeah, and so
Dave Leake:I have the angles pulled up right here by the way, you got what you got them both pulled up the Peter the Okay,
Jeff Leake:those two passages. Okay, can
Dave Leake:I quickly by the way, expand because I know people probably might have a little bit of a question. And this is sort of off topic, but it's quite important about like, the Apocrypha, the pseudo pig Rafa, whatever, and the euro canonical write up writings, whatever you want to call them, you should probably explain that. Okay. So there's a there's a group of books that are outside of Protestant Bibles. It's not the Old Testament so that not the New Testament. It has a bunch of names that I just mentioned, they're things like, Maccabees for the first First and Second Maccabees. There's the wisdom of Ben Sirach. There's the Book of Enoch, there's, there's a lot of the Gospel of Thomas, maybe he's one of them. In any way. These writings are typically included in certain denominations Bibles, like the Catholic Bible has has these, but they're not included in Protestant Bibles. We're gonna reference these a few times. And so just just for clarification, the majority of these writings, they're called Second Temple writings because they were built after the sorry, they were written after the Israelites came back from exile in Babylon. Yeah. And they're written between the last book of the New Old Testament and the birth of Jesus.
Jeff Leake:So in the last 400 years before Christ, exactly after the book of Malikai, in the Old Testament, and before Matthew Matthew, right. And, and they're not typically recognized by the broader church world, because in the earliest gatherings of church councils, they were not perceived to be inspired. Well, they were they weren't historical, but they weren't considered inspired. books that were to be included. Yeah, it was debate
Dave Leake:over that, right. And then quickly, what's sort of fascinating This was another teaching that Tim Mackey did was about how Jesus actually references some of them, like he went references the wisdom of Sirach. Whenever he says, Come to me all you are having related because in that book, it has wisdom, the personification of wisdom, saying that like wisdom is saying, Hey, if you're weary or heavy laden, come to me because wisdom, you can find rest. And Jesus doesn't quote that Scripture uses sort of like a popular culture reference from those books, to then repurpose it for his own purposes to say, Come to me, Jesus, yeah. All you who are weary and heavy laden. So anyway,
Jeff Leake:it's associated writings that were not considered as inspired. Yes, like, often used by early church leaders by Jesus by His disciples. Those who were rabbis at the time
Dave Leake:yeah, they're probably full of wisdom. They're good for historical context. They're probably they're really not divinely inspired by God and take them as the word of God. Exactly. Okay. Anyway, back to this. So we're reading from, from which one is this, this is set Can Peter one through 10 and then Jude five through seven where it talks about these two things I'm going to read you read Jude, I read some of Jude anyway, okay. Do you only read first Peter? Good. Okay, so here's the First Peter says that he's talking about. First Peter one, sorry, first says in verse Peter, there's a second Peter to one through 10, verse one, but there were also false prophets among the people. Verse three says ingredients, they will exploit you with false words, his condemnation from long ago is not idle there and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but held them captive, and Tartarus with the chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, and did not spare the ancient world but preserved Noah Clemmer of righteousness. And seven knows when he brought a flood in the world of the ungodly and condemned condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to the destruction, reducing them to ashes having appointed them as example for those who are going to be ungodly. It goes on to talk about more than this says The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and especially those who go after the flesh into filing lust, and those who despise authority. So essentially, he's summing up this whole passage, where he talked about the angels who sinned, but held them Captain changes are tinted artist, and he didn't spare the ancient world. That's the flood with Noah, and then talks about Sodom and Gomorrah talks about all these different things. And he ends by saying, especially those who go after the flesh into filing lust, so the idea is that in each one of those, there is sort of a insinuation of something supernatural with lust, right? As far as angels who sinned?
Jeff Leake:Yeah, I think that one of the translations, I should look this up in the Jude is that the, the people of Sodom, the men of Sodom, lusted after strange flesh. Okay, and so if you think of that strange flesh, it can be interpreted in two ways. One is, they went after unnatural sex, meaning not between a man and a woman, but between two men, right? That's how, historically a lot of Christians have interpreted that way. Or
Dave Leake:I can just read it real quick. Okay. Yeah, he says, it doesn't have doesn't have the strange flesh, exact words, because different translation, but it says, In the angels who did not keep to their own domain, the heavenly realms, but deserted their proper dwelling place, he is kept in eternal bonds, under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, as Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them indulged in sexual morality and pursued a natural desire in the same way as these talking about the angel. Okay,
Jeff Leake:so this either means sexual sin that is not between a man and a woman, husband, a wife, or it means these men who wanted to have sex with angels, right, which then harkens back to sons of God and daughters of men, Genesis chapter six, which produced these giants of old called Nephilim. This strain of human humanoid Demonoid, kind of, right, yeah, right, right. People that if you view it from that perspective, maybe it's part of the reason why God sent the flood. So it does make some sense in some way, I guess you could say is if God was concerned about these Nephilim creatures that were either born out of natural sexual relationships or SEC between physical sexual relationships between the sons of God and the daughters of men, the angelic supernatural creatures and human beings, or at least the intermingling spiritually between the two. Were now you have this race of demon possessed people who are sort of walking around. If God judged the world through the flood in Noah's time, it would make sense that if that same thing was happening in Sodom, that the severe judgment was not just upon sexual immorality, but it was upon something more severe than that, which then we read that and we think, Okay, well, God raining down, sulfur from heaven, fire and brimstone from heaven, to destroy again, what seemed to be a threat to the whole human race, this Nephilim intermingling of demons and humans. Okay. That seems to make more sense. Yeah. Then just got getting angry at sexual sin. Yeah.
Dave Leake:So the, okay, we've been talking about how we're going to address this book for a long time. The hard thing is this book is so complex, that it's really hard to do it justice than a conversation, especially with our education level. Yeah. Like I think if we had PhDs, maybe we could communicate this as clearly as he does. But we were only two Mackey if only we were. Exactly, but but there's,
Jeff Leake:so I think the gift in my life and probably you carry this doable Dave, is to make complicated things a little bit more simple and applicable. So we can at least take what we've picked out of this and say, as best as we can figure without going into too much detail. Yeah, here are our options. So let me let me ask you some questions. Sure. So give me the possibility that this is just God's judgment on sexual sin. Make the argument for that, that has nothing to do with supernatural creatures, Sodom and Gomorrah and the flood.
Dave Leake:Yeah. Well, I mean, like, if you just sort of read the Bible just as is, it seems like there's enough human wickedness already, for God to judge people. I mean, it might sound a little bit harsh, but God is holy. And, you know, he's the one who makes decisions and can judge human sin. So based on Genesis six, and you know, beyond as it goes through the, for the flood narrative, and also, so Sodom and Gomorrah is all throughout the Bible. I mean, you know, I know Ezekiel, the passage you read, specifically talks about how they, you know, didn't help the poor. But, you know, let's look, there's all kinds of stuff Jeremiah 23, talks about, you know, just as Sodom and Gomorrah, dead like these people are committing adultery, and they walk in lies, they strengthen the hands of evil doers, like they essentially it's constantly referenced as this place of great evil where they weren't just wicked. They were pursuing and reveling in indulging and nasty awful the worst of the worst kind of thing of oppression. So
Jeff Leake:to narrow it down to God judging homosexual behavior. That's a way oversimplification of its God judging sin, sin in general, its greed, its power, abuse, its cruelty, its perversion sexually, and otherwise, it's ignoring the poor. It's, it's running headlong in agreement with the powers of darkness exactly, to destroy one another. And so lot living in the middle of this is shocking, where there wasn't even 10 righteous people, or even people that were spiritually aware in the entire region. And and so from if it's just totally human sin, yeah, we would say Saddam was flooded with cruelty and evil and abuse, and all kinds of horrific what what we've done an injustice to the whole story is, is to lift out of that homosexual sex. So he says all that Saddam is about in
Dave Leake:verse seven, as long as more and the towns around them indulged in sexual morality in pursuit, a natural desire in the same ways as these, Paul talks about how they gave up their natural desire was
Jeff Leake:one Yeah, so it obviously we would have to say biblically, it's a part of the mix. Sure, but it wasn't it wasn't like the singular problem in Saddam. Right.
Dave Leake:Well, there's, I mean, even just in the narrative, we can see that there's all kinds of sexual deviant deviancy, right, it's not even if you don't mention homosexual homosexuality by name. All it's very clear that that's there. So regardless as to how you interpret Jude, there's great human wickedness. Yes,
Jeff Leake:that and you have to always wonder lot, lot What were you doing there? Yeah, seriously, Abraham, and you came into Canaan land, you know, that was to be promised to you. And you could have settled anywhere in all of that region. And you picked Sodom and Gomorrah, yes. Which is the place where God couldn't even find 10 Like minded spiritual people, and angels have to come in and rescue him from that. You think what in the world is not doing their law was a problem child. I mean, he gets carried away and captured in the middle of a battle Abraham has to rescue him. And now through Abraham is prayers, you know, he's rescued a second time out of Sodom and Gomorrah. Okay. So human evil is one reason why judgment might have it clearly is part of the story, right? Make the case now for me, Dave as to how this could be maybe supernatural, in its in its, you know, roots outside of ministry, Gomorrah might be similar to Genesis chapter six. This
Dave Leake:is okay. So this is a little more complicated and meta, but one of the premises of the unseen realm that I mean, he starts off with us and it's sort of shocking, but he goes, he goes into Psalm 82, where he says, God presides in the great assembly, he renders judgment among the gods as what it says. And then it goes on to talk about how these gods are going to be judged. You know, it says, that these gods know nothing, you know, they understand nothing. It says, you know, I said, You are all gods, you are all sends the Most High, but you are, you will die like mere mortals. And essentially like, it's, it's, so he says that God stands in the assembly of the gods. And he goes on to describe how there's this word Elohim, which we interpret as God, but it might be better translated, just two more mean spiritual being. It's not just God or the creator god, it's because it actually says like, he he's a god that's unlike any any other elohim he's above them all. So there he He talks about, you know, in the supernatural realm, there is a court of spiritual beings that define counsel or assembly that he judges. So this phrase, the sons of God where it says, it says that you are all sons of the Most High. And actually, it's used also in job as well, to refer to the spiritual beings. In Genesis, I have to talk about Nephilim in Genesis six to get to Sodom and Gomorrah. Yeah. But in Genesis six, it says, Now the sons of sons of me has actually read it, pull it straight up,
Jeff Leake:the sons of God went to the daughters of men, or they saw they were beautiful sons
Dave Leake:of God saw the daughters of human were beautiful, and they married at married, and even that shows, then it says, The Lord said, My Spirit will not contend with humans anymore for their mortal that is okay. Anyway, so this phrase, sons of God, could be interpreted as the line of Seth. But at least for me, I would say, as I refer to
Jeff Leake:the previous episode for that whole Yes, discussion, but as
Dave Leake:I, as I read this book, and saw, I mean, this is really a theme, this idea of sons of God, I now am a lot more in this camp of, it's probably referring to these angels that Peter talks about that left their realm, their proper thing to come down and be among the people, which then caused the flood and also as a part of Sodom and Gomorrah. So there is this well,
Jeff Leake:so they're intermingling with human beings, right, which caused this strain of evil to rise up was the reason why God judged through the flood. Yeah. And what we're saying is, it also may be the reason why God tried to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, because this was happening again. And now in Saddam. So let me just let me just pause and slow down so we can amplify this a little bit. Sure. And that is, so when we say, sons of God, or, you know, you read earlier in the Council of the gods, and you're using this word, evil, ego Elohim. This is in no way polytheism, which means many gods, right, so there's only one God in the universe. He is distinct from all other gods. And there are many other scriptures that say that too. This is really just saying, there is sort of a subset of spiritual beings that we all categorize as angels, that are probably different levels, or different types of creatures, like you see in Ezekiel and other places, the Jeroboam and Sarafem, and some have the six wings, and they fly around, and there's these supernatural creatures that exist. And so there probably is a whole host of supernatural beings, right, that have been designed to serve the purposes of God, some of whom now have turned wicked and evil, and have begun to do things opposing God. And this subset of creatures, angelic or however you want to describe them? Are we're putting under this label the sons of God. And if they had any intermingling with human beings, and created some kind of strain of a, you know, more intensely wicked, human race. Yeah, God's judgment was designed to eliminate that. Yeah.
Dave Leake:And he actually talks. So then the one of the themes of the book is where all of these strains of evil show up throughout the Old Testament,
Jeff Leake:for instance, that training eradicate, exactly so. So what we tend to think of as one of the most difficult to understand passages of the scripture where the people of Israel, go into the land of Canaan, and are assigned to destroy the Canaanites who live there. This feels very much like genocide. And so it's one of those passages where you read and you're like, This is really a hard thing to understand. How could God you know, assign this, but again, if this was a place, an inhabited by this strain of evil beings, right, that, that live there, just like God destroyed them in the flood, or in Sodom and Gomorrah, now, the elimination, not of every human being that lived there, because oftentimes, when they would go into towns, they would announce that they were coming, the Israelites would write so that people could flee the city. And the destruction was to be of the leaders of the princes of those towns, which if they were this evil strain of humanity, okay, it, it makes me look at it differently than I would otherwise. Yeah, right. So so Okay, so those are three examples of this severe the like, you look, read the Scripture like, yeah, that seems so harsh that God sent a flood to destroy the whole world, or it seems so harsh that he would send down fire and brimstone or it seems so intense that he's asking for the destruction of all the Canaanite cities. But if it is the case, that there's something more going on, than just normal human evil, then, I don't know it sits better with me
Dave Leake:as Yeah, so Okay, so can I just hit a couple of things that where we see this pattern thrown out throughout it? Yeah,
Jeff Leake:sure. By the way, if you're wondering if I'm now subscriber to this theory, Because I definitely was leaning away from SONS OF GOD and daughters of men, I would say, of about 5050. And there are days I'm like, I still think it's the line of Seth, because that was actually the traditionally held view of most Christians from the fourth century on. But I'm, I'm more and more curious about this, simply because the name of the term SONS OF GOD is found so many times in the Scripture and praying to spiritual being and always referring to spiritual beings. Yeah. That's the deal breaker. That's the like, okay, maybe I have never seen that before. And I need to read the Bible with a more open mind to that. It's also
Dave Leake:like so it's, I think part of the reason why it's it's hard to accept that sounds so crazy like that demons made it with human women. And that could be literally or could just be that they possess them and gave them powers. But it's the this idea of corrupt human beings. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:because there's a hybrid, right? We're giants that had something on them of a special kind of evil. So we
Dave Leake:see that in the in the conquest narrative, where the people of Israel, Exodus from Egypt, go through what go through the wilderness. And then Joshua becomes the leader, and they go, and they begin to kick out the Canaanites from the land, you know, how often say like, put them all to the sword. And we can see that like, it's really not every man, woman and child like, right, because they're still living there. And often they're, you know, like, it's not like every single one was killed. But Michael hyzers point is that it's really, totally extermination of all of the Nephilim or the Anna Kim, the descendants of the giants, because
Jeff Leake:who lives in the land of Canaan, but descendants of what Anak, which were the Goliath and his brothers, right? So, giants that feel a little bit like the Nephilim described in Genesis chapter six. So is it possible that some of these creatures or whatever they were Dave, I don't even know what I like, even in my mind, I don't know what I'm picturing. Am I picturing someone demon possessed? Or am I picturing some sort of actual giant
Dave Leake:with crazy physical strength? Yeah, yeah. It's hard to know.
Jeff Leake:It's hard to know.
Dave Leake:But but so there are I mean, there literally are specific kings that are referenced in the Old Testament that conquest Gog or Gog and Magog are two of the ones they find the conquest. Well,
Jeff Leake:no, no, that's Gog and Magog is equal. Oh, I think it's org. Oh, yeah. They're on OG OG. And so it's the people that when they first enter the land of Israel, there are a couple of kings that they confront. I think the king of Bashan and Oh, you're right, og OGs. God, Gog and Magog or anytime prophecy? Yeah. zekiel.
Dave Leake:Oops, sorry, I missed that. Yeah. But it talks about it talks about AWG as being a descendant of the Nephilim. So they're specifically making war there. And Michael was saying that he probably was like, the last Nephilim king in the area. And there's this whole big thing about it. Anyway, it's just crazy. It does, it does make a lot more sense for why there would be a flood for sin. And why Sodom and Gomorrah would be and why there's this intense conquest is to destroy the strain, which is like, another interesting thing that Tim Mackey talks about on the subject is in Genesis three humans, like the devil tempts Adam and Eve to become like, God, if you eat this fruit, you'll become like God, and that brings a fall. And then in Genesis six, it's Elohim. These these, you know, fallen, spiritual beings that tried to, to, you know, bring themselves down to earth to create their own sort of divine ruler class, like, it's not now humans becoming like God, that's Elohim, becoming like men, and it also brings massive corruption, and God destroys that too. And
Jeff Leake:then Genesis 11, and the Tower of Babel, is another example of this. Right? Yeah, exactly. We're together, they try to build their own pathway, to to godness, right to God who God would, you know, destroys that and scatters it, and gives all the people over to these gods to rule on earth. And he pulls Abraham out to create his own family, to start again with the human race. Yeah,
Dave Leake:all this to say. So that's a great point to get to all this to say one of the narratives that I had never really seen that's all throughout the Bible is how you know in in the story of the Tower of Babel, God scatters the nation's they were one people they're trying to make themselves like God, Gods, they get scattered across, you know, the face of the earth, their languages are broken up. And then God picks one people that he's going to try to eventually restore all peoples through which of the nation of Israel and he talks a lot about how Israel was supposed to not be like other nations don't choose other gods. It's the what is that? He says it all the time. Dude, run first commandment actually. Right? Yeah, yeah, as the Deuteronomy 29 worldview is 30 8133 32 Okay, yeah worldview where he talks about disinheriting, the different nations. But what's fascinating is that Jesus, when He comes back to save the world, is actually bringing the fulfillment where He's restoring all the different nations that now demonic powers have claimed like they're over them like this, this country is mine, this people group is mine. But when Jesus died, he died to restore all people groups. And actually I did I probably read this to an axe to when the Holy Spirit is poured out. And they begin to speak in every every tongue that that that world would have known at the time, it's God, reclaiming all of the disinherited nations that every single nation, geographically, they would have known over the ancient world, they speak in their language, at the day of Pentecost, as if to say, come back, yeah, come back to me. And I'm kicking all the demonic powers out. And these people, you know, the plan of the enemy to have his own, you know, towns and people groups that were his, I'm claiming them now against my own such a cool narrative to read from that kind of greater, you know, meta perspective, maybe
Jeff Leake:we went way too deep. For some of you today, I don't know, here's what I would recommend that you do some practical things. So read through the book of Genesis through chapter 19, which we just read together on Sodom and Gomorrah, and you'll see some of the stories and read it with your eyes open to some of the things we just described. Second, secondly, I think, trying to get practical now out of this, if you're saying like, Man, my head is swimming, I don't, I don't even know what to think about this stuff. Okay. So I think secondly, it's good to understand that there is more going on in the world than what we see with our natural eye. Exactly. Okay. So there, we tend to think of spiritual activity in the heavenly realms. It's invisible to us. That's why the book is called unseen realm. But there are heavenly creatures that are operating around us all the time, that are affecting events on earth, that are affecting your life. That when we pray, and we obey God, and we were actually partnering with God to overcome the powers of evil, that are existing and working on planet earth, for the destruction of humanity now,
Dave Leake:yeah, in fact, Ephesians 612, says, our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities against the world rulers of this darkness against the spiritual forces of weakness, wickedness, and the heavenly places. That would be the Fallen Elohim Yeah, and
Jeff Leake:that that world is way more, I think, intricate, yeah. And wild. And so if we think of creatures that are beyond our imagination, so we often oversimplify Angels and Demons, as I got this little red devil on one strong, and I got the little halo angel on the other side, and there's, like these beautiful angels and these creepy looking red creatures that are demons, and we don't even know how they interact together, I would just say, that is such an oversimplification, right of the heavenly realms. There are this probably mind blowingly, detailed creatures that if we could see with our physical eyes, what they look like it would just, it would blow our minds and what they do. And then there are layers of them. There's structure to it. And there's order, he even goes into saying some angels, what we call angels, where would really just be the messenger class. Yeah, of the supernatural creature, which is the
Dave Leake:word angel means messenger. Yeah. And he was saying, it's probably the lowest rank, the lowest
Jeff Leake:rank. So there's the supernatural creatures that are operating in the unseen realm. And the angels may be the lowest, and they're the ones that carry messages to Earth. We categorize everything that's supernatural creature in the angel category, or demon, or the Deemer category, but there's way more to it than that. Now, do we need to understand all this to live a Christian life? No, we don't. Do we need to know what the creatures look like. And, you know, imagine all of these things happening. Actually Colossians warns against that, like, if you spend too much time thinking about angels and demons and supernatural creatures, you then lose all practical value for life. However, I do think it informs a couple of things about how we function. And that is, number one, our prayers are not just bringing things down from heaven to earth, they are actually pushing back the powers of darkness, so that what God wants to do in the world can be accomplished. Secondly, our our Christ like activity when we love and forgive, and we humble ourselves, and we serve and we're generous and we care for the poor and we work towards justice. These things also, I'll push back the powers of the supernatural creatures, and we take territory in the nations on earth for the kingdom of God. We are fighting the Bible says And Ephesians chapter six, not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, and against all of these creatures that are operating in the heavenly realms. And we now because of Christ have authority over them, so that we don't have to live in fear of them, but we have the ability in Jesus name, to bind up their work and to loose the Heavenly Creatures that are working on God's team to bring about his purpose in the world. Yeah,
Dave Leake:well, and I think, I think, practical thing jumping off of that is, there's probably far more demonic activity at work in the western world than we're aware of. Oh, man. So the root the root cause of some sickness Association. Yeah, but But I'm saying I think other nations are maybe more aware of it than maybe we are in the West. Yeah. But there are root causes that are not just physical medical that, you know, can be sickness conditions, or mental conditions or events,
Jeff Leake:or litical divisions that exist exactly or though right,
Dave Leake:the crimes against humanity that
Jeff Leake:happened, it the type of greed, this is not all human in origin, humans can
Dave Leake:be evil enough on their own. It's not that there is not human wickedness. But the Bible is really reflective of their being. Just as Paul says, rulers and principalities, that means that geographical territorial Demon King kind of things that are working actively against what God wants, which is order and peace and goodness for his world. And so I think for us having more awareness that it's not our prayer is not just like God, please hear me, I hope he hears me, I'm trying to beg God, I want him to hear me we're actually participating in spiritual battle, when we pray, yeah, against real creatures that are actively swimming around us in this other kind of realm, trying to do their thing. And we're instead taking our authority and aligning with the name of Jesus in his work to see,
Jeff Leake:like, Dan, and I don't know what's in your chapter nine or chapter 10. There is this moment where Daniel is fasting and prayer for 21 days. And an angel shows up after three weeks and says, from the time that you prayed an answer was sent. Yeah, like you got a yes from God. And I've been, but then as I was, soaring toward Earth with your answer, I encountered resistance by one of the supernatural beings, the Prince of Persia. So the supernatural creature ruling over that region, and we had a combat for 21 days, until finally I was able to break three, and bring you the answer that you that you need. So you can find that in the book of Daniel. So it does give us that picture that there's this that's going on. So let me take us back, though. Let's go back to the Nephilim narrative, and the judgments of God. So let's just say for the sake of argument, that the Nephilim were this merging of human and demon creatures, that God sent judgment with the flood, and then he sent judgment through Saddam Babel breaking up the, the, you know, the peoples into many nations, and that he sent judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, and then he said, judgment on Israel entering the land of Canaan. Are there Nephilim in existence today?
Dave Leake:Probably not. Okay,
Jeff Leake:so So this is one thing I didn't understand from the book. Why do we think that? So that's also one of the things that makes me lean toward the fact that maybe there aren't these giant Demonoid humanoid creatures, because how are they now eliminated? When did they go away? Is it in Canaan's conquest?
Dave Leake:Well, he kind of I mean, that was what he alluded to, is that that they were exterminating the loss of the Nephilim and but they
Jeff Leake:net but Israel never completed that task. Yeah. Right. They they conquered but they didn't completely conquered and well, were many that still remained in the land and even Goliath brothers was still around if you would put Goliath in that category. So what how do we how do they die off?
Dave Leake:I don't know. I don't know. But why are we not
Jeff Leake:going to war against these Demonoid creatures today? Like if that was an Old Testament practice? I know that now Jesus has come so we fight in a different way. We don't fight flesh and blood we're not pulling out swords and machine guns to do spiritual battle.
Dave Leake:I mean, that you don't really see the Nephilim or even really as much of their descendants after after date. David's you don't you don't really see it in the in the exile period.
Jeff Leake:Because because there is no more like isn't so Sodom and Gomorrah, and then the Canaanite conquest is the last of these examples of Gods
Dave Leake:Yeah, and then you have descendants of them, but you don't actually have Nephilim any Okay, right. Like you have Goliath who would have been a descendant of the the Aniki or I think is what was right. But anyway, it's complicated.
Jeff Leake:It's interesting. He then goes on to say that he thinks in this book, Michael Heizer. Yeah, okay. That may be those who are demon possessed today are those who are now being re are owned by these Nephilim, which are now disembodied spirits which come back because they're trying to, to get back into human body in another way. Whereas maybe they were sort of half human before now that they have died off their disembodied spirits come back to try to take possession. That's his one of his theories.
Dave Leake:He was saying that the Book of Enoch says that that's that's what they okay. I don't think it's his own personal theory.
Jeff Leake:One of the things that is true, he pulled it out. And there's not a lot of actual New Testament teaching. You see a lot of demon possession, and deliverance happening. You see Jesus addressing it, but doesn't really define a lot. What the demons are,
Dave Leake:they're unclean spirits.
Jeff Leake:That's all we really know. I mean, spirits. Yeah. And what is an unclean spirit in relationship to I have no idea these spiritual beings? Yeah, I guess they happen to be they have to be that right? Yes. They have to be these spiritual beings that are invisible to us that now try to take over a person's function. Sure.
Dave Leake:One thing I'll say that that has left me confused at the end of all this is when did the fall of the the angels to become demons happen? Yeah. Or is it happening gradually, or can still happen or not happen? Because I always assumed it like, based on the two thirds. So go
Jeff Leake:back to your second Peter chapter. Okay. And read that again. I'm curious of what that says again. Now, now that we've talked about all this, some of these passages in Jude and Second Peter, make a little bit more sense, because I would always read over those chapters. And I'd be like, All right, I don't know what that means. Like Second Peter one. It's hard to understand. Let me just move on. But yeah, go ahead. Read it again. Go slow.
Dave Leake:Okay, wait, man, I just lost it. Hold on. Let me see. I had saw them. That's what I typed in. Alright, here we go. Okay, so second Peter. Second Peter to one through 10. Read the whole versus your head. But there were also false prophets, prophets among the people and ingredients. This is verse sorry, he skips I'm reading from directly from my closet book he skips to he says, an ingredient as they will exploit you with false words his condemnation from Longo is not idle and their destruction is on asleep. For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive and Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed
Jeff Leake:over captive in what Tartarus what is Tom of the dead? Okay, yep.
Dave Leake:That's just that's the Greek word is why he uses Tartarus. Okay, the realm of the dead. So that's
Jeff Leake:the Greek word that we would find in that particular verse,
Dave Leake:yes, I believe is actually Tartarus.
Jeff Leake:So start to get with the angels God did not or
Dave Leake:if God did not spare the angel, this verse for the angels who sinned, but held them captive and Tartarus with chains of darkness, and handed them over to be kept for judgment, and did not spare the ancient world that preserved Noah a proclaimer of righteousness and seven others, when he brought a flood on the world of of the ungodly, and condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes, having appointed them as an example for those are who are going to be ungodly and rescued lot worn down by the way of life of lawless persons and licentiousness. For that righteous man as he lived among them day after day was tormenting his righteous soul. Like what are you doing? What if I, by the lawless deeds he was seeing and hearing, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to reserve the unrighteousness to be punished at the day of judgment, and especially those who go after the flesh and defiling lust and who despise authority?
Jeff Leake:Well, there's a lot in there, there is a lot in there. So it seems the link all the idea it does, it seems to say, during Noah's era, it was human wickedness. But there also were angels involved that got judged during that time. Does this seem to say that? Yeah, and it seems to say that the same thing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. Yeah. And that that Lot was considered righteous, even though he was living amongst unrighteous people like he had camped in the middle of a wicked place, and was living a tormented life. Boy, that's a good thing to preach on right there, man. If you're if you're if you belong to God, and you choose to live in the center of evil in your in your lifestyle, and you hang out, you will just be it's just a recipe for being tormented in your life. Yeah, you're living with one foot in one and one foot in the other and you're just going to be constantly pulled back and forth. But it says but God can rescue you out of that. Yeah, he knows how to even with righteous people living in in immoral spaces, rescue you out of that and at the same time, bring judgment on the rest. And so he says this was to serve as an example to everybody Yeah, that God is not messing around right.
Dave Leake:You want me to read Jude five through seven now head? Yeah, it's again at the No, this is interesting, okay, Jude five, because it's only one one chapter Jude verse five says, Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all that Jesus having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who not did not believe. And it says in verse six this key, and the angels who did not keep to their own domain, but deserted the proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under the deep gloom for the judgment of the great day. A Sodom and Gomorrah and their towns around them, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued the unnatural desire in the same way as these are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. So, first of all, it's intense. Anyway, it is we are reading about this we're talking about sorry. Oh, you're good. There you go. We I think we were reading these as we were talking about our hell episode A while ago, yeah, it's already an intense verse
Jeff Leake:well, and that this makes actually hell make more sense to because Hal was really not designed just to punish human sin. It was designed to punish these evil sons of God, right, so to speak, these Elohim that have rebelled against God, these supernatural creatures. And so how consumes them once and for all? So the flood Sodom and Gomorrah, the land of Canaan, the conquest? Yeah, hell yeah. All are sort of aligned with this theme of these supernatural creatures who are evil, that have to be obliterated from the universe, in order for God's kingdom to function the way that he designed it to, and
Dave Leake:their direct challenges to his authority. So his responding a little more intensely, because there it's not just humans. It's Elohim. Like the trying to overthrow god. Yeah, right. It does. So
Jeff Leake:it's a battle for the throne of the universe. Yeah.
Dave Leake:It's a wild taken perspective on the Bible. I think I am tending to lean towards it, the more I've looked into it, but it's, it's so different than anything I've ever thought of or heard
Jeff Leake:one of the things that I think I started to feel after a while Dave, because, you know, I listened to it on Audible book, and I think it's like 16 hours. Yes. So it's a long investment, he starts to make it an explanation for almost everything, right? And I think at times, I felt like, okay, he's straining here to make this one theme become the reason why every verse makes sense. Sure. I think he's got something, I think he's got something, there's something to this, think it's hard to understand the two passages we just studied, or even the rationale for some of the judgments in the book of Genesis, without there being something here, right. And then it also makes sense, actually, you know, this takes us back a couple of episodes go to the, what's happening in the Middle East, Israel, Palestine, and prophetic fulfillment. As I pray for that situation, now, I pray for the defeat of the principalities and powers. Because the situation with human beings in both Palestine and Gaza, and Israel is confusing at times. But if I realized there's something behind this, that is not just human, I can pray it away. That, you know, I guess, pushes against the darkness to bring about to end asking for the kingdom of God to come. So it also I think, helps my prayer life to see the world this way. But I think it was intended by God to be a little mysterious. Definitely. Yeah, I agree. I don't. So if we were supposed to know all of these answers, what these creatures are and how they operate. God would have informed us Yeah. I think we get shadows and pictures like, but maybe there's more to what's going on in the universe than what we understand. Certainly
Dave Leake:there is.
Jeff Leake:There's no doubt about that. Which must be the reason why people are seeing aliens now. See.
Dave Leake:I used to tell when I was a kid, I was a simple answer. I don't think you were trying to you were just like, I think I would have mentioned aliens in the Bible if they're aliens, but it's like, Well, God didn't mention a lot of stuff. So not that I think there actually are aliens. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway. Well, that was a whole lot. If you want to get you know, a lot more deep into this stuff. It would be worth either reading supernatural, which is an abbreviated version or the full version Korean supernatural.
Jeff Leake:Don't read the long version unless you unless you're really, really into theology. Yeah,
Dave Leake:there are other really fascinating topics that I never saw the way on the
Jeff Leake:Bible project. There also is a whole series of little videos. Yeah, they're great. On supernatural beings and on the Nephilim. Yeah, on the Nephilim. He talks a lot about it. So if you want something more some kind of beginners level, that would probably be the way to start. It absolutely
Dave Leake:would be. Yeah, but anyway, um, so we're obviously still processing through this. Hopefully, it was at least fun to hear Jeff, come back and say he now believes in the demon definitely. So
Jeff Leake:5050 Yeah, yeah. And you know, too, I think it's also good. I like the fact that there's a way broader story to Sodom and Gomorrah than what it has been. I grew up, I grew up understanding, because I think I got really narrowed on one particular form of sexual sin. Right. So seeing it from a broader perspective, I think was, I know, I felt like I really learned something that way. Yeah,
Dave Leake:me too. Me too. Well, we really hope you enjoyed being a part of this today. As always, we just want to say a big thank you, we know that a lot of you are regular listeners. So thank you for making our show what it is, we love your ideas when you submit them. And just as a request, I know what usually asked us, but you could really help us out to spread the word by liking and subscribing on YouTube. By obviously leaving a five star review on Apple podcasts or on Spotify by sharing this with a friend. And he those things are helpful and we would love it if you just take the time to, you know, help us reach more people. So, again, thanks for joining us. I can't wait to talk to you again next time.