Half-Demons & The Nephilim

In this captivating podcast episode, the hosts delve into an ancient historical account found in Genesis 6. They navigate through the Bible, examining various interpretations provided by renowned scholars. They discuss the intriguing presence of the Nephilim, debating whether they were fallen angels, demon-possessed individuals, descendants of godly or ungodly lineages, and their potential supernatural attributes. Join the hosts as they explore these captivating possibilities, shedding light on the mysterious Nephilim and their significance in ancient history.

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Transcript

Dave Leake: 0:03

All right. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast where we talk about the principles behind the plans. As always, I'm one of your hosts. My name is Dave.

Jeff Leake: 0:12

My name is Jeff and we're both pastors in Allison Park church. We're glad that you're joining us today.

Dave Leake: 0:16

Absolutely. Big thank yous coming up here to a few people who have left us five star reviews recently on the Apple podcast app. So when I say thank you to leech squad to Josh, our GUI Joe think it's how you say your name. Sorry, if I butchered that to our benefit three to nine. And to Kyle and Becky. It's not Kyler and Becky, it's Kyle and

Jeff Leake: 0:37

Becky is lead squad is that maybe one probably has to Brad Leach. But

Dave Leake: 0:41

my guess is yeah, thank you. So thank you for your five star reviews. This helps us to sort of spread the word and kind of climb the charts. And so if you have a second and you could go to your your either Spotify or Apple podcasts, leave us a five star review. That'd be really helpful. And we just want to say thank you in general, those who are listening. Thank you, especially to our regulars. We really appreciate you guys, you make the show. Great to be part of

Unknown: 1:04

so absolutely. We do appreciate you.

Dave Leake: 1:05

Yeah. All right. So finally, we've got to your summer, summer light episode that you wanted to do for a while,

Unknown: 1:14

let's do it. Yeah,

Dave Leake: 1:16

we are going to be discussing something that that is sort of inconsequential to life, in general. But it's something that I think is very interesting to a lot of people. It's this.

Jeff Leake: 1:28

I don't think it's all that inconsequential, actually. So we're going to talk about two interpretations of one particular passage of scripture. And I actually think the interpretation I prefers brings out a very beautiful truth. So it might take us a little while to get there. And we're going to wade through some things you might be curious about. But then I do think at the end, you're gonna see the unveiling of what I think is very beautiful truth. So anyway, even if it's the wrong

Dave Leake: 1:52

interpretation. I'm not even really sure. But really, the heart of what we're going to be talking about is this passage that's found in Genesis chapter six. And it all revolves around this, this one group of people that the Bible refers to as the Nephilim, or the net leam as

Jeff Leake: 2:13

methylene. So spell it for us here, Dave, what what so that people get this word, and they can even be Googling it as we're talking. It's

Dave Leake: 2:20

NEPHIL, I am the Nephilim, the Nephilim, whatever you want to say, basically, at the beginning of Genesis six, we have sheis just sort of give a recap of where Okay, so Genesis, you know, chapters one through three is the creation of the world and all that's in it. And then we have the fall of mankind or Adam and Eve. So this is

Jeff Leake: 2:43

the ancient ancient ancient human history right here, right? At least 6000 years old, maybe, maybe, maybe more. Yeah, probably more. Yep. More. Yeah. But we don't want to get into that debate. Let's just keep going. We know it's ancient history. Absolutely.

Dave Leake: 2:58

Okay. So we have we have this fall of mankind that have sort of corrupted God's good world. And then you see all the ancestors of Adam and Eve that start to sin and become more and more follow. Remember,

Jeff Leake: 3:11

Genesis for Cain and Abel become the first to born to Adam and Eve, they have conflict, Cain kills Abel, that another one is born Seth. And then we have the ancestral lines of both canes, descendants and sets descendants in chapters four or five. And then we get into chapter six. And actually

Dave Leake: 3:33

an interesting part, as we're kind of going through the line one that I never until I started teaching the Old Testament class for our Allison Park Leadership Academy, which by the way, shall fly like Detroit. But I, you know, one of the things I was doing my research, as it's going through the descendants of Cain, so Cain most likely goes and starts, you know, he leaves where they were living with his family, and he goes into the sort of city which becomes eventually the city of Babylon. And in that city, it becomes more and more evil and corrupt, and one of his descendants is named les Mack. And in Genesis 423, he laid back one of his descendants, in this line of people that are becoming more and more corrupt talks about how you know if Cain who killed one person, his brother was avenge 77 times I've killed and murdered so many people that if anybody kills me, God should Avenge me. 77 times. I'm 10 times

Jeff Leake: 4:31

as a cane seven times, right, les Max 77.

Dave Leake: 4:34

Exactly. Yeah, God marked canes because he was a murderer. You know, he will, he'll wander forever. This guy is so much more corrupt. So we see the spiraling down of humanity from originally being in this perfect state with God where there is no distance, there's no separation. They were vulnerable with each other. And now we have sickness and death and evil and the corruption of the fall in the two twisting of sort of like this exponential snowball of evil where people are getting worse and worse and worse. And in Genesis five, we have a genealogy, the record of history of the descendants coming from Adam all the way to our brings us to chapter six, where it

Jeff Leake: 5:15

introduces Noah. And those of you that know the name Noah, Noah that this is the introduction of the flood narrative, right? Absolutely. That affects the whole world. Yeah. So here we are, beginning of chapter six. And we before we get to the flood, we have the introduction of these unusual characters.

Dave Leake: 5:32

And I want to say really quick, just just for the record, what we're talking about here is not fictional. This is an historical account. And none of this is actually meant to be fictional. So in terms of the way that the biblical authors crafted Genesis is not necessarily meant to be a scientific account, but it is a historical account that is meant to be seen as accurate. And

Jeff Leake: 5:55

the it's good to understand too, that the flood narrative where we have the description of Noah is also found historically, in many other ancient cultures, not just Judeo Christian traditions.

Dave Leake: 6:08

In fact, there's one in Babylon ancient Mesopotamia, I think, from Babylon, that was called the Enuma Elish, which is often compared and contrasted to the biblical flood story to come on Bible College. Coming back out here. Yeah,

Jeff Leake: 6:23

yeah. So that's also because some people look at the flood as a fairy tale story, as if it has no roots in history. And it's just sort of like a Bible myth, kind of idea. But the flood, the idea of this, this huge, cataclysmic event that happened and affected the world, is actually something you see in many different cultural writings, including the one you just met.

Dave Leake: 6:44

And probably the most important thing to understand is that Jesus believed in this as being a real historical did thing from the Word of God. Yeah. And while he doesn't reference Genesis six, specifically, he references this collection of writings called the Torah, constantly throughout,

Jeff Leake: 7:00

like, for instance, in Matthew 24, when he's talking about endtime events, he says, as it was in the days of Noah, and he says, you know, people were eating and drinking and giving in marriage and all these things that were going on until the flood came. So Jesus isn't quoting here a myth, he's actually saying, Remember the history of Noah, this is going to be the same kind of reality that happens at the end. And since Jesus is the only one that conquered death, we take his word on just about everything that means makes him at least in my eyes, the ultimate moral authority.

Dave Leake: 7:31

So if you believe in Jesus, you believe in the flood, then you should believe in what Jesus believed in, which was the flood, right, exactly. So we're talking about an ancient historical account that actually happened. So I'm going to read Genesis six, one through four. To start, we can even go a little further than this. But just to kind of give some context. So some some caveats is, you know, neither of us is a biblical languages expert. We can't read ancient Hebrew. In fact, the research that I've done is from people with PhDs that are way smarter than us that have done a lot of this. But so we, we will have to talk about some of the Hebrew words here, even though it's an English, we'll talk about that, but that's not our expertise. Just a caveat. Okay. So Genesis, I'm reading from the Holman Christian Standard Bible version. Genesis six, one says, When mankind began to multiply on Earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw the daughters of mankind were beautiful, and they took and they took any they chose his wives for themselves. Verse three, and the Lord said, My Spirit will not remain with mankind forever, because they're corrupt. Their days will be 120 years, kind of give an interesting side note about this, because I always thought growing up, that meant that God was going to now limit how old people could get to be 120. Which people here don't. That's what I always thought to. Okay. But for me, what is the what I've done further research? Probably what this is actually referring to, is that 120 years from this point is when the flood happens. So my spirit will leave it says, My Spirit will not remain with mankind forever. I'm going to withdraw my protective presence from the world and 120 years. Yeah, we and we know this is probably true, because if this was if every man is going to live to under 20, Noah lives, wait, I think, six 600 plus years. Yeah. And you see lots of people pass this time that live beyond 100. Another

Jeff Leake: 9:24

little curiosity that's prophetic about the flood, is in the genealogies there is a man that's most famous for being the oldest man to ever live Methuselah. And his name actually means when he dies, it will come. Hmm, interesting. And the year that Methuselah died is when the year that floods started. Wow. So it's almost like God was giving the human race warnings. Yeah. Like, like almost a chance to repent. Get ready, or else in 120 years or when Methuselah dies. Things aren't going to be good for you. Yeah, right. So a chance to get right with

Dave Leake: 9:59

Him. Okay, so then here is where our interesting verse comes in. It says in verse number four, Genesis six for the Nephilim. Were in the NFL team, how are you going to say we're on the earth in those days, and also interesting and afterward when the sons of God came to the daughters of man or mankind, who bore children to them, they were the powerful men of old, the famous men. I'll pull up the NIV translation because I know it's a little more

Jeff Leake: 10:29

standard. They were heroes of old men of renown. Yeah, so the whole verse the the Nephilim, were on earth in those days and also afterward when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were heroes of old men of renown,

Dave Leake: 10:43

okay, and then six, five, the Lord saw great the weakness, wickedness of the human race, it became an earth, that every inclination of the thoughts of human heart was only on evil at the time, the Lord had regretted that he made human beings on the earth and his heart was deeply troubled. So this Thus begins the flood narrative now there's a specific marker where in six four part of why we know how evil the Earth is, is because of Genesis six four. Okay, that's that's sort of going along this theme of humans have made the centers of evil the city like Babylon, which, by the way, I also didn't know this till recently, but that the Tower of Babel is built in Babylon, where the

Jeff Leake: 11:22

so which happens after the flood, right in chapter 11, so

Dave Leake: 11:25

we have this culture center that of corruption and evil and sort of they've pushed away and just like Adam and Eve did, where they defined Good and Evil by themselves that they made that decision. Now it's spiraled, and spiraled out Okay, so the Nephilim Where do you want to start with this? Do you want to start with your thoughts? Or we could start with Nephilim I guess

Jeff Leake: 11:45

since we build this as a comparable Episode Two are aliens part one and aliens part two, and if there are aliens, what does that do to Christianity? Let's start with the very fascinating description of what these give me the Sci Fi,

Dave Leake: 12:01

the minor

Jeff Leake: 12:03

things. Sure showing my bias here,

Dave Leake: 12:06

okay. Okay. Okay. So, so there are there are a number of different interpretations, there are actually four different interpretations, okay, or what Nephilim Neff, Aleem could be, yes. The first is that when it talks about the sons of God, where it says that in verse two, the sons of God saw that the dogs and humans were beautiful, and they married anything they chose, the first interpretation would be that the sons of God, and thus the children who became the Nephilim, the sons of God, were actually fallen angels. They were, they were just as we see angels taking physical form all throughout the Old Testament, and even the New Testament few times. So demons that were physical forms that that, you know, with women, that's yeah, that's slept with human women conceived

Unknown: 12:50

and had a they had a child. That's baby kind of a thing.

Dave Leake: 12:54

Yeah. So the idea. So I mean, even the idea conveyed in here is that they there, they weren't just ordinary humans. Now, that doesn't mean every interpretation means that they're supernatural. Like they could have been just, you know, physically daunting. So maybe

Jeff Leake: 13:10

maybe it was like a human male, demon possessed. Having sex with

Dave Leake: 13:16

this. That's the second interpretation. So the first one would be that it's actually a fallen angel, actually an angel having sex with a woman. And then thus we have this sort of demon blooded person with potentially supernatural powers, or maybe they're just gifted. Yeah. Then the second one would be that it was I was people that were possessed by demons that slept with women. The third interpretation would be that it's the it's called the Seth ight theory, meaning it's from the line of Seth, we pull this up. Okay. This is I'm reading here from answers in genesis.org, as a summary case, the sons of God where the godly line from Seth or from Adam to Seth down to Noah, and the Nephilim, were the Fallen children of those who sold out sought after false false gods. And then finally, there's the Fallen men view which is similar to that one godly men, sons of gods, a sons of God, excuse me, took ungodly wives and their descendants, the Nephilim, followed after false gods rejected God and fell far from amateur wickedness. So there's sort of those four either it's

Jeff Leake: 14:19

so let's start with the demon babies. I love that right. Come on, let's start there. So what do you think about that Dave? Is it what is the merits of half demon, half human? And do you think that's still happening today?

Dave Leake: 14:36

No, it's not still happening. Okay. So I'll say this. I up until about a year ago, I knew that the half demon thing was like a theory. But I didn't. I hadn't really given any thought or credibility. And then, as I've been doing more Old Testament research, I realized that it's kind of one of the predominant viewpoints. Sure.

Jeff Leake: 14:58

Yeah. Yeah. So there was a A very famous old guy alert K, very famous radio teacher preacher on on most radio stations across the country 1960s 70s 80s J, Vernon McGee. And he was on normally early in the morning. And he was a big proponent of this if I'm not mistaken. Okay. So it was taught for decades as the predominant view of what was actually happening in Genesis chapter six. Yeah, I actually had never heard another explanation. Until I was in full time ministry about what about what this passage could mean other than that, so it was always like, I would read about the, the Nephilim and these demon slash human humanoids. And I would think, well, that's weird. And then I just read on into the flood, and I never had a good explanation for it.

Dave Leake: 15:52

Yeah. Okay. So So you want me to kind of go through. So why people think this?

Unknown: 15:56

Yeah. Why do you think that?

Dave Leake: 15:59

So I may not do the very best job of presenting this side, because I've only sort of just discovered this more recently. But it's fascinating. And it actually has a lot of credibility. It's a real in my opinion, it's really credible theory for this. Okay, so here's, here's, here's what we have about this. I'm gonna go through some

Jeff Leake: 16:17

again. This sounds like a stranger things episode, right? The Nephilim it does ever watch the rest of Stranger Things. So I don't know how it ends. But yes, it does sound a little bit like

Dave Leake: 16:27

it does, but it's in the Bible, though. It's not a Netflix. Yeah.

Unknown: 16:30

No one ever made a movie about this. Yeah, this would be a great Frank Peretti you know,

Dave Leake: 16:35

what do I remember the definitely being in the movie, but they did make that Noah's Ark movie with Russell Crowe a few years ago. Okay. While now at this,

Jeff Leake: 16:43

I never saw that because people told me it was so wildly biblically inaccurate that I just felt like I don't want to do that. Yeah, I'll Anyway, go ahead and Okay.

Dave Leake: 16:51

All right. So let me go through the fallen angels view. So the sons of God and this viewpoint would be that they are fallen angels, okay. And that Neff, the Nephilim are a mix of human and angels. Okay. So, to start off, the word for naturally means fallen ones, okay. So that could have a number of different connotations, but that's what we say we they're called fallen ones, which a lot of people have sort of that's part of the thought that

Jeff Leake: 17:20

fallen angel is a demon, right? The fallen ones it could be referring to more supernatural. Another

Dave Leake: 17:26

interpretation could be they are like, the Fallen Kings of old like the Fallen Kings in battle, meaning like those who were violent fighting, okay, winning victories, but regardless, the heroes

Jeff Leake: 17:38

of all the ones we celebrated were like the great warriors.

Dave Leake: 17:41

Okay, so fallen ones. So part of the reason I guess one of the biggest cases for why they would be considered to be fallen angels is the specific word sons of God are the phrase for sons of God. The other points that we find this in the Old Testament is typically referring to angels, specifically, in job 1621 and 38. Seven it talks about the sons of God so let me pull up job one, just job one six, I'll read this okay. So it says, on the day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord and the Lord and Satan also came with them, Laura's had to say and etc, that's verse seven. So when it says on the day the angels came to, to present themselves that's the sons of God as the the actual phrase, same Hebrew word, same exact Hebrew phrase, the sons of God. That's listed three different times in job okay, and then we have two different New Testament passages. That would seem to give some credence to this theory is really, uh huh. Okay, okay, so the first one and there's I have some I might be reading more scripture until we get to this point okay, but um, so I know it's in it's in Second Peter two verses one through 11 So here's a Peter wrote says but but the false prophets also arose among the people just there's there will be false teachers among you will see really introduced destructive heresies, even denying the master who brought who bought them brings with destruction upon themselves. It talks about how many will follow their sensuality I'm going to kind of skim through this and then here's what it says actually pulled up in my

Jeff Leake: 19:21

so it actually describing the decay the moral decay of the world that Peters describe what happened in the past

Dave Leake: 19:27

year. Let me let me let me pull this up in a different different app here. This will help me

Jeff Leake: 19:31

this is such a thick episode here that with so much biblical intrigue, that you've never actually done one with an open computer Davis,

Dave Leake: 19:38

I know this is good. Right now I'm using my cord and SAP using the Bible softwares.

Jeff Leake: 19:45

I have a program called logos which I put Yeah, that's great. So mine's

Dave Leake: 19:49

like a different version of the same thing. Okay, so I'm reading this now. It says I'm reading the NIV. In their greed. These teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories and then second Peter, it says they're con donation has long been hanging over them and their destruction has not been sleeping it's like computer to for, For if God did not spare the angels when they send but sent them to help putting them in changed our dispute helper judgment. If he did not spare the ancient world so immediately talks about the angels straight into the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected no preacher of righteousness and seven others. If you can condemned the cities of Assad and Sodom and Gomorrah, Metta can't talk by burning them into ashes and made an example of what's going to happen then godly rescue lot, et cetera, et cetera. Et says this, If this is so then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and how to hold the unrighteous for punishment in the Day of Judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority, bold and arrogant, they are not afraid he views on celestial beings, yet even the angels, although they're stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. So basically, there's sort of this like this thought here that Peter is intentionally talking about a story of fallen angels. At the same time, he's talking about all this ancient

Jeff Leake: 21:16

world. Okay, so he goes fall into a correlation, not a direct mention.

Dave Leake: 21:19

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't directly mention that there. But then we can look at Jude which is one chapter, Jude verses four, four through eight. So here's what Jude fourth rate says. Okay, Jude four, okay. All right, it says this. I'll read starting in verse three dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share. I felt compelled to write and urged you to contend for the faith that was once once for all entrusted to God's holy people. Here's verse four. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you, they are ungodly people, pervert the grace of God into a license for immorality and not Jesus Christ. For Jesus Christ, our only sovereign Lord, though you already knew this, I want to remind you, that the time the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe and the angels who did not keep their positions of authority, but abandoned their proper dwelling, the sea is kept in darkness bound with everlasting chains. On Judgment Day, in a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah in the surrounding towns give themselves up to up to sexual immorality in perversion. This, they serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. And then it even goes in the very same way on the strength of their dreams. These ungodly people pollute their own bodies, blah, blah. So, here we have this sort of passage where it talks about the ancient world, and Sodom and Gomorrah. And it says that actually, in a similar way to the angels, Sodom and Gomorrah, this runtimes game this stuff up to sexual sexual immorality and perversion, so it's this idea that they're probably leading those two sins. Yes, they're probably alluding to this ancient world sin that happened.

Jeff Leake: 23:06

Okay, it's good. It's there. I'm not totally convinced by those New Testament link links to sure particular but I could see how if this was what you were trying to establish as a pattern in the scripture that you might connect those, the most convincing aspect of what you just shared in the last little segment was the job passage and the sons of God being the same Hebrew word used in both sections. To me, that is the most convincing and if that is true, then the New Testament passages add a little atmospherical support to it.

Dave Leake: 23:40

And I'll give I'll give one more thought that. I heard Tim Mackey and John Collins during the Bible project podcast. So this is the view they would take as well. And demon baby one. Ah, wow. Yeah, they're strong proponents of it. How about that? And so

Jeff Leake: 23:56

who could argue with Tim Mack who I know exactly, I'm going to. So a very different take on this particular passage. But go ahead. So they're going

Dave Leake: 24:06

they're the one last thing I'll say about this is in Genesis three, where it talks about the fall of man where Adam and Eve decide they're going to you know, to take the fruit. The the snake says, you'll become like, God, if you do this, yeah. And the word they use for God there as Elohim which is just a general word for God's creator. Yeah, well, it's yeah, yes, but it's a Divine Being Elohim. Okay. It also can describe angels, I think at times using this, this idea. So, there in Genesis three, we see this pattern of man trying to become an Elohim you know, a spiritual being like God,

Jeff Leake: 24:47

or maybe the demons trying to find greater power through creating procreating with humans.

Dave Leake: 24:54

So So then, so the flip side of Genesis three is humans, you know, trying to become Gods we have the flip side of divine beings, fallen and mating with humans is sort of the flip that they do. It's like they think which then

Jeff Leake: 25:09

gives the case why God did something so severe as to destroy the world through the flood.

Dave Leake: 25:13

Exactly. Yeah. Yep. The corruption was only spreading this would have potentially been the fault. Like,

Jeff Leake: 25:19

they're like a demon virus hit the human race. And it had to be eradicated because it would have created so much horrible effect that if God didn't reboot the world, we would have had this demonic infection in our bloodstream.

Dave Leake: 25:35

I think I don't know that that was the only reason I think it just how corrupt the world had become

Jeff Leake: 25:40

one of the that I'm more convinced by that than I was before you started. Okay. So there's, there's there's a lot agree with it. But I think okay, I get what that saying. It makes sense to me. I guess it gives us reasonability to the flood because the flood feels a little bit like, Man, that is, here we are and God just destroyed every living creature. I mean, wow, that's intense. So it does give some reasonability behind that.

Dave Leake: 26:04

And I'll say one last thing that I heard that was interesting. A lot of people have so I think why it sound so wild. It's like demons had babies with with human women like that sounds while these spiritual beings apparently have a physical manifestation. And then we have these demon blooded kids. Yeah. But actually, the Holy Spirit conceiving Jesus through the Virgin Mary is rather heavy, No, baby. No, but I'm just saying it's actually a little bit more of a radical version even than just that where

Jeff Leake: 26:35

Why does Tim Mackey or why does this theory think that it's not happening anymore?

Dave Leake: 26:40

Because Fallen Angels aren't walking the earth anymore? So they don't have the theory of it's a possessed person? It was actually

Jeff Leake: 26:46

okay physical, why are they no longer because God through the flood destroyed the angels to in

Dave Leake: 26:53

the way that it says at this time, the Nephilim will still we're still on the earth, it seems to indicate that it was it says after they were as well, and even after Yeah, but it but it may have the connotation that like they still we're for a tow but it is

Unknown: 27:09

aliens.

Dave Leake: 27:11

There actually is a whole segment of people that think Nephilim mereo. And

Jeff Leake: 27:16

maybe they're the ones that created the pyramids and all the technology that happened. Okay, who

Dave Leake: 27:21

knows? Who knows? Yeah, actually, though, if you did go down the route of the fact that net Nephilim were sort of supernatural at humans, then they could be responsible for lots of things. And yeah, who knows what they would have been like, the Bible doesn't address a lot of that. But it's really interesting.

Jeff Leake: 27:38

And lovers among you, we just created a good spiritual explanation. Can they be saved? Obviously not. They were destroyed, right? Yeah. Okay, exactly. So what's theory number two?

Dave Leake: 27:50

Theory number two, it would be the one that we talked where it was a demon possessed person, that's probably not as predominant, then I think the next one that you sort of would prescribe to is probably another.

Jeff Leake: 28:01

Yeah, so for me the most obvious context is always the best biblical interpretation. And what precedes and what follows, to me is the most important aspects of things. So what precedes Genesis chapter six is the story that there were two lines, there was a line of Cain, so descendants of Adam and Eve, who lost faith and leaned into wickedness and became more and more corrupted, like lame duck. Okay, and then Seth's line, who are all described as righteous people, Enoch, Methuselah, they were all now living for God. My thought is the sons of God married the daughters of men, is a lot like the whole kind of Christian data non Christian question. So Seth's descendants looked and saw that Kane's descendants were attractive. And like what happens with Solomon later on in the nation of Israel, he marries foreign wives. And before you know it, foreign gods have come into Jerusalem, and just outside of the gates of the city of Jerusalem, they're sacrificing kids to Molek. Yeah, I mean, how to David's son, Solomon, all of a sudden gets a wicked, it's because he married someone from a different worldview. And so my thought is that, that Seth's line, the people of faith, intermarried with canes line, the daughters of men, and they became corrupted, because this is what happens. People don't tend to pull you up, they tend to pull you down. And so the whole line of faith got pulled down so that there was no no one left walking with God except for Noah. And when he talks about the Nephilim I just think he's talking about the legends. We all have legends and heroes. These were the people the Nephilim that we've heard about the great exploits that they did, doesn't even necessarily say what they did maybe built great buildings, maybe won great battles. The heroes of all that

Dave Leake: 29:54

tells us what they were they were just they were probably kings and rulers. Yeah, they

Jeff Leake: 29:57

were. They were they were great warriors. They were the ones that they told the stories about what they were able to do and accomplish.

Dave Leake: 30:05

For me, luckily, they were very corrupt because it's using them right in the context about how evil the world had become not just like a fact. But

Jeff Leake: 30:12

so I don't think we need demonic blood flowing through our veins for us to be corrupted by sin. I think the point was, humanity had walked away from God. And so God tries to start over. And I always teach this when I teach at the ministry, Allison Park Leadership Academy, by the way, you can still apply that God's vision for the world why He created us in the first place was because he was one of the family. And so family 1.0 was Adam and Eve, and it went wrong. And then he tried to preserve family through Seth's line. And when Seth's line intermarried with canes line, he had no hope for family left except for Noah. So he destroys the world and reboots it all. And Noah's family line becomes the second iteration of God's vision for family. And that only lasts a few days because Noah gets out of the ark, and plants a vineyard and gets drunk. And now he's, you know, one of his sons walks into a naked and he curses him and

Dave Leake: 31:15

well, do you want to take away the interesting guy? Yeah.

Jeff Leake: 31:18

So this was always another one that he took no has three sons. One of them walks in when Noah is drunk and naked, Genesis nine, I believe, yeah. And the other two then cover him up. And no, a curse is the boy that walked in on him. But the Tim Mackey version is what?

Dave Leake: 31:37

Well, okay, so me, me do this. I'm trying to pull up the English Standard Version. I can't find it here. Where's the ESV? So

Jeff Leake: 31:44

we're in Genesis chapter nine. Anyway, let me keep going. While you're finding that

Dave Leake: 31:48

I'll just I'll just talk through it. I generally remember what it says. So in Genesis chapter nine, there's a crazy story. So we have God just has restarted the human race now for the line of Noah and his sons and their wives. And there are these three sons. And so the story of Noah you know, the first thing No, it does is he comes out of the boat plants, a vineyard gets hammered out of his mind and his laying there in his tent.

Jeff Leake: 32:19

Can you imagine what God's thinking I was like, Come on, man. He's, we just started the whole thing over and here you are now. blasted. And keep going. Yeah.

Dave Leake: 32:30

And so then in verse, so this is all in verse to Genesis chapter nine, verses 20 through 24 and beyond, but so it says, I'm not going to read this because I'll try to do my memory. But it says that his son ham, the father of Canaan, says sauce father naked. There's the other translation. That's, I think, a little closer to the actual words in Hebrew. Here it was, he uncovered the nakedness of his father or sauce for something like that. Yes. So for a long time, I remember even asking you as a kid, like, what the heck is this? And

Jeff Leake: 33:08

why couldn't you? Like I go into the gym? I see people naked all the time. Why is that a big deal?

Dave Leake: 33:12

Yeah. And I remember talking like, Well, maybe he like laughed at his father and mocked Him. And so then he gets this horrible curse like your, you know, your brothers are gonna rule over you and your sons are cursed. And all this awful stuff. It was like this is a crazy, intense thing to happen from just accidentally seeing your dad naked and laughing at him. Yeah, right. But what's important to understand is that this is actually So Genesis is a part of a larger collection of five scrolls, called the Torah, Genesis, Exodus, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, number Numbers, Deuteronomy, excuse me. And they were seen as one collective work. So it's five squirrels, but one book, if you could think of it like that. Yeah. And in Leviticus in Leviticus 18. When it's describing these, these sexual rejection, yeah, taboos not just taboos, though it's how to stay in covenant with God avoid these things. These are all really horrible things. The it uses the same phrase here and one specific thing it says. It says, Do not

Jeff Leake: 34:17

uncover your mother's nakedness or your

Dave Leake: 34:19

Yeah, do not do not sleep. Let me just pull it up.

Jeff Leake: 34:23

Yeah. So which let me let me while you're doing that, it basically means that Noah's son had sex with his dad.

Dave Leake: 34:29

Yeah, well, we're with his mom. Oh, okay. Covering the nakedness of his father's sleeping with his his father's wife. Okay, so in this sort of a power move, Rose. I think it's Leviticus 18. Nine or 18 Eight, excuse me, is what it is. And if you're looking at like NIV, it says do not have sexual relations with your father's wife. That would dishonor your father. But the the Hebrew phrase that's used there is to uncover the nakedness of your father. Okay. It says

Jeff Leake: 34:55

so. So here's my point. Yeah, let me get back to the question, but we got a big bunny trail They're the, I don't think you need demon babies to have wicked horrible God grieving actions. Because Noah's son ham, was one of the seven rescue through the flood. Yes. And within minutes after his sin nature caused him to do the unthinkable to his mother, he probably raped his mother. And therefore God had to start over again, after Noah, but not by destroying the earth, this time he selects Abraham. And Abraham becomes the father of faith. And this is now family 3.0, which starts the whole narrative of Israel. But even Israel doesn't really fulfill God's plan for family. And so God starts again a fourth time, by bringing his son Jesus into the world. Yeah. Now, here, you actually have a story of a supernatural, the Spirit of God, igniting the womb of Mary, where God Himself becomes flesh and dwells amongst us. I believe that does happen, of course, and then through Christ, we now have the true version of family,

Dave Leake: 36:01

by the way, actually have the kind of kind of read the verse look like? It says, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife, that is your father's nakedness. So that's where we get this idea from of him.

Jeff Leake: 36:11

That's even more disgusting and revolting what ham does, and you understand why the curse comes on. And just so that people aren't like,

Dave Leake: 36:17

what are we talking about? The idea in that story narratively is it's almost this power move, where ham is trying to take his father's position, by sleeping with his wife, we see a similar thing happened with with Absalom, his Davidson later when he sleeps this concubines to sort of take that power and authority. So it's like, they humanity, corrupt humanity gets restarted with the seven people, and the worst and one

Jeff Leake: 36:43

gets drunk and the other pulls this power move and has incest with his mother.

Dave Leake: 36:48

Oh, that's so disturbing. See, I

Jeff Leake: 36:51

don't think you need I don't think you need the demon narrative to justify why God had to judge the world. In fact, I think that if we, if we have to have the demon, half demon, half human Nephilim as the justification for the judgment of God, then really don't we have to have that now when when God judges at the end,

Dave Leake: 37:13

I flip it though it's not a new, it's not a new interpretation. I suppose this was the view of Jews in the Second Temple era when they were writing these apart apocryphal meaning extra biblical counts that aren't necessarily

Unknown: 37:24

so this has been a ancient theory. It's it's what they it

Dave Leake: 37:27

was the it was the the baseline of what Jews believed. And until the medieval scholars who were taking some of the supernatural elements out the line of Seth being humans wasn't really predominant view. Now, that doesn't mean it's not correct. We don't really actually know.

Jeff Leake: 37:43

So for me, the moral of the story being if you're a person of faith, it matters who you marry. Sure, if you're a person of faith, it matters who you have relationships with. But you also have to marry someone who also shares your passion for God. And so what corrupted the line in my view, was the compromise. Yeah. In the fact that they were intermarry with people who are not going to lift them up, or were going to drag them down. Yeah. And then the human race became evil because of that. Yeah, I think you could hold either view, and it's be a totally legitimate perspective. But I don't think Seth's line were angels. Like they were humans. Don't you think they were? Yes. Okay. So if Seth's line are sons of God, because they're people of faith, then then we're talking about I guess you would say Seth's line remain true all the way through till No, yeah. And then there were these fallen angel creatures that made Caine's line even worse. And and so but you have to think that after generations, that Seth's line was pretty big. Yeah. Like the population of Seth's family and Kane's family had to have grown. What I love about the storyline of my preferred interpretation, is this deep desire that God has to have a family that God has always been interested in family, the reason he didn't need to create us, he chose to create us in his image because he wanted to have a family. The the highest thing then, for us to achieve is not to be like God, but to be with God, yeah, and to be in his family. And what we're really longing for is not to be Gods, but to be with the God who created us, made in his image as a part of his family. And God has been so patient and persistent that over 1000s of years, he continued to pursue building a family so that he could finally reach this stage. We're now through Christ, we are all considered sons and daughters of the Most High that we've been adopted into his family that we belong to him through what Jesus Christ did for us. And so, now that that is the fulfillment of all this to me, it also reminds me of the fact that humanity is corrupt all on its own. Yeah, right that we all have this sin nature in us and if we give into it, or we if we have partnerships with people who are not trying to be like Christ or be a part of God's family, that we become quickly corrupted. And this is actually true, too, without even demon blood flowing through our veins, you know, we would say him and Noah, were in no way part of the Nephilim tribe. Yeah, they were distinct from that. They found favorites as Lord, but they had so much corruption in them that they did the unthinkable within days after dark. Yeah, the rainbow happens. Corruption was because demons intermarried with humans, Noah's family is sort of proof that they were just as corrupt because of the sin, the sin virus or nature within us. Yeah. And the fact that God would look at us and say, you're still worth saving. I mean, and, and continue on with Abraham. And then after Israel's failings continue on, by coming and becoming one of us, so that he could finally do it the right way, and then give his life for us so that we could be cleansed of the sin virus and brought into God's family. To me. That's what makes the story of the Scripture so amazingly incredible and beautiful. Yeah. However, I don't think that if you believe that there were demon baby hero legends. That these terms like a toy, yeah, even baby hero legends. I think that's if Tim Mackey is is leaning into that. Hey, whom I I don't agree, but I'm totally okay. With that interpretation. Because I think you can still take the, the underlying truths out of it

Dave Leake: 41:44

well, okay, so I'll throw a few more persuasive things towards what towards your viewpoint. Okay. So terms of the language, so the sons, the sons of God, the way that it's phrased in the Hebrew isn't ever used, specifically outside of the terms for angels, but there are references to like not using the same exact words, but to people being sent of gods that are clearly not angels. So like us, we're called sons of great well, so let me let me read through three. So most of these are really, they're actually all Greek. These are all New Testament phrases, but we have Luke 338. Or it's going through the genealogy of Jesus as the son of Enoch, the son of Seth, son of Adam, the Son of God, yeah. So Adam was called a son of God, are you go? And then let me give you a few more. Matthew five, nine, Blessed are the peacemakers they will be called sons of God. There you go. That's, that's Yeah. Romans eight, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 819. So that was a 14 a 19 says, creation waits and eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. And then Galatians 326 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Yeah. So does it necessarily, like the Hebrew link is interesting? That's where a lot of people take it from the Greek sort of seems to use that idea. You know, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Off. So

Jeff Leake: 43:05

no, let's make a practical How do I get applicational lessons above this? Number one matters who you sleep with?

Dave Leake: 43:11

Yeah. Especially if they're a demon. Yeah, for your mother. Oh, my goodness. This episode is not safe for kids. We probably should have put a content warning at the very beginning. Yeah. Or,

Jeff Leake: 43:25

or someone who does not belong to Christ. I mean, if Okay, let's let's just say it if you The Bible says in Second Corinthians chapter seven, if you are with someone, you're you've devoted your life to following Jesus Christ with all your heart and you want to become like him in every way. And he is the center of your world and you want to be his disciple. Bible says that if you were even dating or married to someone who's an unbeliever, you are unequally yoked, that word yoke means to be matched improperly, like you would never yoke an ox with a donkey, because they would hurt each other in the process. So you would you would make sure that you had two animals that were a match that were going in the same direction, pulling together to accomplish something good. So I do think that the idea of being a part of God's family carries with responsibility, because you can trace throughout the old the old testament, the story of how the kings in Israel, when they intermarried with people from other nations, it was part of the downfall of the nation of Israel, it was a part of what caused the cycle of them always rebelling against God. And you can see that I think in the pre Noah era, as well, I think that's what the moral of the story is.

Dave Leake: 44:40

Yeah. If you were to take aways, okay. I think one is that God takes evil very seriously. Yeah. I mean, you know, he promised to never destroy the world of water again. But, you know, this shows how far people had fallen from what God's vision for the world was, was to be something you know, good and righteous and pure and

Jeff Leake: 45:03

it says, grieved that he even made us you regretted it? Yeah. What a sad moment. Ah, yeah. And so I think I can then decorate it. So and we just have highlighted a couple of the crazy things going on and how disgusting it feels to us. And the thing that God still kept pursuing us. Yeah. Like he could have just, he couldn't have, he could have just sent the flood and destroyed Noah and his family as well. Like, what was I thinking? I didn't create this whole thing. Let me just family was a bad idea. I'm just gonna live the rest of eternity on my own. Right. But instead, he stays with it. Yeah. You know, Paul talks about the unlimited patience of God. And it is true that God's grace is just way beyond his love for us is beyond my understanding. I think about this in my own life in my own failings, that God keeps on loving me by choice, because that's who he is, in spite of how I treat him or how I behave. And he has kept on loving the world, all through 1000s of years. And his plan was always to send his son to bring redemption for us at a cruel and horrible price of crucifixion. Because he's always loved us that much. That's just amazing to me. And that's the beautiful part, I think, of this whole story, regardless of the Nephilim interpretation is that we serve an incredibly persistent loving God, right? It's that song. What is it? unending love, a relentless love or whatever, with reckless love? Yeah, that he just keeps on coming and keeps on coming and keeps on coming. We often see God from the vantage point is, he's going to come with a fist, you know, the moment you step out of line, actually, it's the other way around, God is keeping on pursuing you and loving you and coming after you because he so desperately wants you and as a part of his family, even in spite of all the stupid things you do, and to me, that's just such a beautiful, beautiful poem is

Dave Leake: 46:59

gonna contrast you for a second here. Yeah, because I think some of what we see, though, is that God does not have infinite tolerance for evil. No, true. Because he hates evil. He loves us. Yeah. So the Jesus is the choice to leave behind this line of evil and corruption and choosing to define our right and wrong by ourselves, and elevate our ideas and to follow Jesus to say God's ideas are better than mine. And to turn from our old ways on our old nature, and I think God's God's patience is, in some ways,

Jeff Leake: 47:32

limited in his tolerance, right. But he's unlimited in his love. Yes. So he will not tolerate evil, he will, he will allow for our consequences to come and hit us of our sin. He will even bring judgment on the world, and the evil that's in it. And the people and the evil people that are in we're all eternity, which is what we talked about with with the idea of Hell, yeah. And which was what the evidence of the flood, and yet through it all, in spite of it all, his love for us never changed. Okay,

Dave Leake: 48:02

we're happy here for a second. But can I just tell you, like, I think one of the things that even in the middle of talking through horrific stories, like in Genesis nine with him and his mom, and all this stuff, I think, in talking about judgment, I think one of the things that feels refreshing about all of this as like, it feels like there's so little, like truth, like mixed with grace that's being talked about in our culture. Yeah. And even in churches, sometimes I think we tend to avoid some of the heavier topics because it's hard to hit some of this with someone who's brand new, knows nothing about the Bible or the gospel. So this podcast feels like it's an outlet. And I don't know, I just feel like an antidote to some of the evil that's in the world as being able to talk about and reveal and discuss judgment, truth and judgment and things that are that are in in the Bible that are more of a difficult nature.

Jeff Leake: 48:55

So without that, how do we ever really come to a place of repentance man, and for me and and really get right with God? As much as he loves to say, Yeah, unless you repent,

Dave Leake: 49:05

and unless you really realize how much you need God. Yeah, like how the fact that like, God's patience and love is not something that I deserve. Right? I loves

Jeff Leake: 49:16

you as as you are. But he doesn't want you to stay misaligned with his truth. You have to get right with him. You got to change your ways. You got to turn yourself over to him. And then he floods you with His favor and grace. But your if we insist on God accepting us the way that we are, period, and no changes necessary. We have now created a God that that is not the God of the Bible, and a God that does not exist. I

Dave Leake: 49:42

heard a Bible teacher describe that view of people thinking of just like a needy boyfriend. Yeah, it was like, come on, please. I know he cheated on me, but it's okay. I need you back. Come on, please. But that's like not really the way he cried. Yeah, he's not just like whatever. Like I don't even care what you did. Just like come that's not how God is. His name is holy, and we have to come to him and submit to His ideas

Jeff Leake: 50:05

are like the heartbroken father and the prodigal son story, not chasing after the son, even though he would have wanted to drag him home. But it's patiently waiting for the return, and then welcoming him with open arms. But the return happens the repentance moment happens he Sprint's to him. Yes. So in order for you to experience the love of God in your life, the way that God wants to show you his love, you got to run back to him. Maybe this whole curiosity around Nephilim is just the setup for you to recognize. You don't want to live like Kane's line? No, you want to run to the arms of God, nor do you want to live like Noah or Noah's son, you want to be a part of the family of God and live in intimate connection with him. So get right with God today.

Dave Leake: 50:52

I was just saying this to you. And this is this will be a comment. This could be a topic, but just about like, you know how I've been thinking about that. I think there's a misconception that, that being a Christian is believing the right things, but it's really submitting your lifestyle and living the way Jesus has asked us to. So I think that that's like

Jeff Leake: 51:12

their fruit. Jesus said, You will know them.

Dave Leake: 51:16

So come to Jesus. Yeah, no, because He loves you. And he's waiting with open arms, that I'd never thought our Nephilim episode is going to take us exactly here. But I told you

Jeff Leake: 51:23

it's a beautiful thing. So let's pray before we end this so you can pray along with this. So So God, we just take a moment right now, to turn away from the things we know that are sinful, that are selfish, that don't align with you, to turn our minds and hearts back to you. We know we can't fix ourselves, but we run to you like the prodigal did. And we asked you to receive us by the blood of Jesus cleanse us and begin to work on us so that we can become more and more like Christ. We want to be fruitful in our lives. So we just thank you for your loving embrace today. Jesus name

Dave Leake: 51:57

Jesus name, amen. Amen. Well, that was a weird light episode. There it is, the devil um, and so hopefully enjoyed this episode. If you did, you know, it would really mean a lot to us. If you could help us out by doing one of the following. You can like and subscribe on YouTube, you know, hit that like button, you can share on social media. You can always give us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. And then, obviously share this with your friends. You know, this might be a strange one to share. But if you know somebody is interested in this, share it but he's helped us to get the word out and spread the resources and so yeah, with that, just want to say thanks again for joining us. We'll see you guys next time.